The Holy Grail?!

[Michelle]

This idea is a new one on me!! Look at figure 9.

www.jamesarthur.net/mushroom1.html

The Holy Grail is a mushroom? Sounds bizarre, but there are some interesting points worth discussing.

Michelle

[Don Barone]

Hi Michelle ...

Absolutely fascinating page [article]. Let me think on some of the ideas for a while and I'll get back to you ...

But a very interesting site for sure !

Cheers
Don Barone

[JoeS]

While Belladonna, Mandrake and other natural (and powerful) psychotropic drugs were used by alchemists and those involved in the occult, I can't help thinking that this page serves only to justify modern appetites for these dangerous fungi. Mental wards are full of those who experimented with Magic Mushrooms. Not something to toy with, IMO.

If you read Parcival, it's pretty clear that the grail is either a stone or a cup.

Joe.

[Michelle]

Hi Joe

well, I've never taken drugs, psychotic or otherwise. I've never liked the idea of handing over my self-control.
I do find this idea intersting for the reason of why people such as shamans sometimes resorted to such drugs - to step between the worlds or dimensions or whatever you choose to call them.

I wondered if it could be seen to symbolise that the Holy Grail was a gateway in some way? It's own bridge between worlds? Not necessarily a mushroom-induced version. After all, there are mystics that manage to travel WITHOUT the use of drugs. For example drumming and chanting have been used by many different people to change the state of the mind.

Hmmm.. not sure if I'm making sense there, I'm writing this quickly. I haven't time to sit and think this through, so it might be a bit garbled. Sorry.

Must agree though, I don't see the Grail as being a mushroom and whilst I do agree with some of his theories on mushrooms in history some of them some VERY stretched!

regards

Michelle

[jaq]

Hi Michelle
I just posted this link on another thread but it could just as easily have been in response to your post on what is the Grail

www.btinternet.com/~abraxa9/Gnostichome/arthur2.htm
Jaq

[Michelle]

Thanks Jaq

I hadn't thought about the repeated use of 12 with Arthur in the 12 Knights. So we return also to the same symbolism of the 12 apostles? And Arthur is betrayed by Lancelot as Jesus is betrayed by Judas? Well.. a bit of a stretch there, but the repeated numerical symbolism is intriguing.

12 astrological signs. I wonder if the knights characeters have ever been tested against the 12 signs to see if they "fit". Could be interesting. Plus 5 for the 5 elements? Now my mind is buzzing!

Great website BTW.

Michelle

[jaq]

Hi Michelle,
Glad you like the site - I have neglected it for a while now as I pursue my studies; but should be updating it again when I have a few things cleared up in my mind

12 is a figure that crops up again and again don't you find?
I hadn't thought of the betrayal link - interesting too :)The Grail Story (in the Arthurian context) has so much symbolism incorporated into it that I now see the Holy Grail as being symbolic, though of course the bloodline theory, among others, is something very intriguing.

What interests me most is that often there are parallels that run through so many major beliefs/myths/ and there is always the symbolic/spiritual interpretation as well as a "material/physical" interpretation (not sure if I've explained that very well!!) perhaps it's the old esoteric versus exoteric thing (and as above, so below of course )

I find these things are very difficult to put into writing, but that was the point of my website - trying to present it all in a way that one could draw it all together, without me presenting "conclusions", as in many cases, I have not yet drawn my own!
Jaq

[BERNHARD]

Dear Michelle, Charlotte and OTHERS, i know: the interpretation of the GRAIL (GRAL) under a more esoteric and pychotropic point of view has its very own and fascinating aspect ! and how much have been written about the GRAIL/GRAL. many contexts have been opened, so for one example the grail as the real hidden MANNA-machine of the Moses, several times hidden and transported from one place to another, finally rested at the TEMPLER. and now the questions: where it had been hided after the killing of the TEMPLER. ! several exciting solutions, up to the OAK-ISLAND mystery ! yes ! ok, now back to another very recent good research, i think, done by michael hesemann, a german author, well known several years ago as one of our best german ufo-researchers. ( had good international contacts ), but since some years his interests changed, he wrote some totally different books, got good contact with the vatican and the pope himself ! well, i do not want do discuss or judge his new orientation, no, i want to point to his new book (sorry: in german). and i believe he made some good research in relation with the grail-mystery. i have this book, took myself time for reading, and i must say: very interesting ! i do not want to tell it all here. would be unfair against Michael, but he traced back the way of the GRAIL/GRAL to first century CE, and from there to modern Spain ! and here you can find the grail, over the last centuries, on a very exciting tour, and now in the CATHEDRAL of Valencia ! on world some objects are existing, considered to be the true grail (GRAL), but the object from Valencia is very worth to study it. the type, and many details of the object iself, and the tracing of it's history are very convincing: the GRAIL/GRAL is a drinking cup, made of a "flaming achat", a type of a very noble cup, worthful and of fine arts ! ONE ADVICE: GRAL is the old-spanish expression for of a drinking-cup, formed like a mortar. more details read at: " Die Entdeckung des heiligen Grals" by Michael Hesemann / ISBN: 3629016596 / february 2003 / Pattloch - best regards from bavaria: Bernie

[Charlotte]

Hi Bernie and All,

I missed this thread, was in Egypt at the time.

As I'm sure you have, Bernie, I came upon this mushroom "Fliegenpilz", flying mushroom, or mushroom to fly by, or something how StarSeal (I wish he'd come back) puts it "that of which accesses the grail", many times during my wanderings in the forests. I must say that there is something fascinating about this mushroom, I used to stand and look at them, but we were told as children to never ever touch it because it is highly poisonous.

I only read part of the page Michelle linked to, and remembered the new years card, you know the one Bernie, with the black "Schornsteinfeger", the man who sweeps the sut out of the chimney, and 2 or 3 Fliegenpilze always on the bottom of the card. So what the author of the page says about this mushroom and plants being mind-expanding drugs, facilitating contact with the gods, is shown on this card, sweeping out the old (year), and greeting the new (year). There was something else on this car I can't remember? Now I'm curious, next time I go wandering through the woods with my sister, I'll pick one up, at least, I don't know if I have the courage to eat it, or how much of it. If I don't come back ya'll know I did, and please come to see me in the lunatic asylum Or, if I survive the experience I could tell you about it.

I agree with jaq that a cup or drinking vessel is symbolic for the Holy Grail, similar to the fountain of the gods from flows ambrosia, or manna, or divine life force from the "flaming achat." Who can say in words wherefrom flows this feeling of divine ecstacy? It can't come from the outside, because the outside world remains the same, cold and fixed, but our ecstatic soul enlivens and transforms it.

Maybe, Bernie, you can give me a link in German to read some of what Michael Hesemann has discovered.

Charlotte

[BERNHARD]

Dear CHARLOTTE, an introdution regarding the discovery and research of Michael Hesemann you can read (in german) at: www.livenet.ch/www/index.php/D/article/351/8122/ and a spain article with this special grail/gral cup , named "santo caliz", today at the cathedral of Valencia (spain) : grupo11.8m.com/santo_caliz.htm - a small advice: the upper part of this spanish cup is the original old jewish cup (made of ACHAT), the lower part is a later work, but fine as well ! best regards : Bernie

[BERNHARD]

Dear Charlotte, here an article in context with another new research by Hesemann, where you see him visiting the pope ( not for the first time ) : he is the man on the most right position. (advice: Michael was born in 1964) : www.ngz-online.de/ngz/news/kreisneuss/2003-1108/papst.html and his homepage: 151.189.12.248/hesemann/html/index.php as you can see, the design of websites is not his strenght so far and SERVUS and CIAO: Bernie

[BERNHARD]

Dear Charlotte, ... step by step : the "schornsteinfeger" brings luck, because in medieval times it was very important to sweep the chimney. if not, a thick layer of (fattened) soot multiplied the risk to incend. and esp. in the narrow built villages and towns of the middle ages a burning chimney-fire could very fastly jump from one roof to another, thus burning down nearly a whole city. thats why a sweeped and cleaned chimney was used as agood symbol and a wish for eve having a clean and riskless chimney. that's the background with "schlotfeger" on a newyear-card. now to the use of "fliegenpilze" (pl.) on a new-card: this comes from old german, or better nordish traditions. this mushroom ( named "fliegenpilz" ), was considered to be the mushroom of mighty god WOTAN, the god of exstacy and recognition ( in contextwith the psychotropic effects of mushrooms like "fliegenpilz" and others ! known since e thousands of years as you know, only remember the celtic druids, or the "magna mater", shamans (shamanism) and so on. worldwide old knowledge of using drugs out of different plants and mushrooms. back to WOTAN: crossing the sky while riding on his horse, it's slaver ( from the mouth) was fallen to the ground of earth, causing 9 month later the growing of these "fliegenpilze". the ride happened on (german) WINTERSONNENWENDE (winter solstice) . servus and ciao: Bernie

[Charlotte]

Danke Bernhard,

for the links which I have to read this evening. Came home from a lecture late and overslept

As to the chimney sweep and Fliegenpilz, I know they had to clean the chimneys so "entire cities" wouldn't burn down. That's the below explaination. A "city" means many times the composite human being, (where live billions of creatures) as in the Bible and other systems, and you say "a symbol for eve to have a good and riskless chimney." Is that eve Adams "wife?"

In light of what you say about Wotan, it doesn't make sense to associate it with "good luck" on a new years card. One could say it means good luck in the new year, but it "covers" or verschleiert the deeper meaning. Why would Fliegenpilze be with a chimney sweep on a new years card? And I just remembered the other thing on the caed, a 4 leaf Irish clover, and some more leaf's strewn over the card.

HALLELUJA! We have the 4 leaf clover/ the luck of the Irish/the Druids, and St. Patrick "the snake chaser" can be thrown in; the old German or nordic tradition has Wotan, the god of "ecstacy and recognition", recognition of the true nature of a thing causes ecstacy, crossing the sky on his horse on the winter solstice, a transition from the winter sleep, or "the person sleepeth", to the awaking of spring, saliva/salvation/Mt. Salavat, to solve et coagula, falling from his mouth to the earth, out of which saliva grows the Fliegenpilz after 9 month, 9 being the number of perfection, or the perfected man makes contact with Wotan via the Fliegenpilz.

Us women are his hand maiden, the Valkyre's, who tend to, and "cure" (kyrie eleison) the "valr", the heroes wounded in the battle of life, and take the dead to Walhalla, a Greek temple on our beloved Donau, next to the Befreiungshalle, architecturally round, the hall were one becomes "FREE."

And what more could we aske for?

Charlotte

[BERNHARD]

DEAR CHARLOTTE, was my failure, i missed to express myself more precisely: the symbols used on the "NEW YEAR CARD"s do not refer only to LUCK ! these symbols are more a collection of different symbols to express different good wishes of all kinds. and the nice looking "FLIEGENPILZ"-mushrooms ( you surely do remember the nice and sweet looking illustrations in our children's books of tales and mysteries, showing us dwarfs ( "wichtel oder wichtelmaenner - und frauen ! " ), standing in front of their little "Fliegenpilz-_houses", in the shadow of mighty big trees ) , DEVOTED TO WOTAN, are more old german/nordish symbols of getting knowledge of all kinds, even of the special knowledge and experience the DRUIDS had ! the wish for luck is expressed with the four-leaf-clover. and why ? because of its cross-figured shape ? guess, it's use is based of Irish-origin. (celtic ) here a nice text cut from an original old irish source: " There's a dear little plant that grows in our little isle
Twas' St Patrick himself sure that set it
And the sun on his labour with pleasure did smile
And a tear from his eyes oft-times wet it It grows through the bog, through the mireland
And they call it the little shamrock of Ireland" isn't it very poetic ? many other symbols for "LUCK" do exist like the PIG and the HORSESHOE ("Hufeisen") and others. the people of today mostly do not know the true origin of the symbols, having their own different (!) meaning in ancient times ! today all the symbols are only used in more generalized and equalized (summarized) form to express "LUCK" ( but for many people the meaning of LUCK can strongly differ ! ) best regards: Bernie

[Charlotte]

Hi Bernie,

The symbols on the new year card refer not only to luck, but are a collection of different symbols expressing good wishes of all kind. The questions are: why would the Fliegenpilz be used for best wishes and luck considering it is extreemly "poisenous?" Why is it called a "fly" mushroom? I hear my sister say because flies like the colors and come to crawl over it. And since it is a "pagan" and "Heiden" symbol, therefore "evil" as far as the churches are concerned, why is it kept alive in childrens books? And then there is the "Hexenkreis"=witches-circle, mushrooms growing in a circle. I have a picture of myself in a "Steinpilz"=stone-mushrooms circle, you know I love magic stuff. I'll send it to Don to kindly post it for a visual.

Of course, in school and by the folks it is dismissed as fantasies, intertainment for children, but I think it is for people, like for us at the moment, to look into it, make contact with the collective memory in the subconscious, which Gurdjieff says is actually the conscious and I agree, make contact with the mysteries and Wotan. As Michelle said, these are things worth discussing.

Wichtelmänner and Frauen, witches, "Weissheit"=wisdom, "wissen"=to know, "Wissenshaft"= to work to know, or the sciences, are all connected. Dwarfs, "Zwerge-Zweige"=a branch--of humanity, are also "lucky" and wear the pointed cap, mostly red, reminds me of the "white crown of divine form" of the Egyptians, wence the Pope's mitre, and Bishop's. We have the dwars in our gardens, I have some on my balcony , the protect our homes from evil spirits, but only if they're hidden in the bushes, when out in the open they loose their power, so goes the legend.

But there is another aspect to the "Lilliputaner", said to be the offspring of Adam, who represents humanity, not one man, and his first wife Lillith, which may hearken back to the 5th avatar of the Lord Vishnu as the dwarf "Vamana, upright, short and weaponless", upright-the first human form, weaponless-mindless at that time . . . so all these things go way way back, but are with us, mind-boggling.

I don't know why the four-leaf clover, rare, it may be the cross-shape as in X cross over to a new direction. The "dear" little poem is telling some:

"Twas' St. Patrick himself sure that set it
and the sun on his labour with pleasure did smile,
and a tear from his eyes oft-times wet it,
it grows through the bog, through the mireland,
and they call it the little shamrock of Ireland"

St. Patrick is called the "snake chaser", and I don't think it means that he chased snakes on the ground all over Ireland, rather he persued the serpent of wisdom, "set it in Ireland", and wet it with his tears of graditude and humility which flow in a gods given moment of insight.

The horseshoe I could explain to myself as giving traktion to the horse, a symbolic extension of the mind, which then "shews" something.

And of course the lucky pig is Wilbur!

Thanks Bernhard

Charlotte

[BERNHARD]

Dear Charlotte, the name "FLIEGENpilz" has it's real background: only 100 years back, people in most rural regions still used a bad smelling mixture of sqeezed heads of the fliegenpilz together with milk and sugar, offered in an old cup, to catch flies ! they come, magically attracted by this stinking fluid, and then they are totally catched and fixed to this sticky milky stuff ! it functions ! try it out ! that's why this mushroom got the name (in gemany) "FLIEGENPILZ" ! this mushroom is not such poisonous ! i am very familar with mushrooms, i was the first pupil at our gymnasium, who organized and performed the first mushroom-exhibition ! i like wandering through the forests, while looking for (eatable!) mushrooms. by doing this, i can totally relax, and later enjoy a fresh and extraordinary good smelling and cheap meal of different mushrooms ! Hmmmm... !! as we mentioned above, the psycho-trophical components of the fliegenpilz had been well known thousands of years ago. ( including some other special mushrooms or plants or gazes ). poor people in the most eastern region of europe, cooked the fliegenpilz twice , put the water away, and then the fliegenpilz is eatable as well. not delicate, but if you are hungry, you will eat nearly everything. eating only one fliegenpilz (without cooking) will not cause severe danger to your health. you will get some troubles, but will not die. ( please: do not try it out ; !!) ok, so far for today, because i am very busy: best regards as always: Bernie from Bavaria

[levander]

FWIW:

it was John Marco Allegro, the famous Qumran (dead sea scrolls) translator, who introduced the idea of the mushrooms:

"in 1970, Allegro wrote his most controversial book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, voicing his opinion that Christian religion was based on a cult practicing frequent drug-use (psychedelic mushrooms) and sex. He theorized that Jesus' last words on the cross were not a lament to God but “a paean of praise to the god of the mushroom” (Skepticfiles.org - John Allegro). This book in itself started a cult. "

www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/information/biography/abcde/allegro_john.html

*Allegro is actually credited by J.Artur:

Having discovered works by such Pioneers (in Ethno-Mycology) as (1) R. Gordon Wasson and (2) John Marco Allegro. James set out on a quest to unravel the mysterious meanings and implications of sacramental ingestion of plants in a religious context.

www.jamesarthur.net/about.html