|
Post by Don Barone on May 1, 2009 8:17:07 GMT -5
cheers Don Barone
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 1, 2009 8:40:51 GMT -5
Yes, I understand the ethnic Orthodox having lived under the yoke of communism and the pusuit of the American Dream has distracted them from their faith. Unless one is driven by the desire to earn millions and have a house on the hill, one does not have to loose one's Soul to achieve the dream to a certain degree. I'm happy to say that all my life money itself was not important to me other than its use. I do well, but my real life is governed by currency from Above, so one can have both when balanced.
Tending toward the Light, "The Journey to the Light", seems to be Don's entire agenda as well, as of late. My first impression was just that, to partake of what the Church offers, and depending how much or how little, it will work proportional.
Your explanation of certain things, the Icons, and the slanted cross, is very helpful, and for the learned and devoted Orthodox the veil between this and the next world being very thin, intelligible.
I can say that I remember all quotations, thus far, from the Bible you cite, as here concerning the two thives, though one was called a murderer?
Charlotte
Ah Don, thanks for the Cross. What was it you used to say, "ask and ye shall receive". Is receiving without asking a God sent, then, or a compelled Don Barone sent?
Love
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by Don Barone on May 1, 2009 9:03:10 GMT -5
Hi guys ... We are all on the journey toward the light. The problem with organized religions is that they claim someone has to help you get there. No such help is required. We are all on the 'same ship together, moving on" as Chris de Burgh would say. However if this would become common knowledge why then would we need a church, money or any material thing. What would prevent a return to Medieval times where I think it was known that none of it was real and none of it mattered. People were free (in spirit and hope and love) and that is not allowed. I have never needed a belief in anything to keep me on the straight and narrow and even were I to find out it was all a dream and an illusion I doubt whether I would become a complete hedonist [partial perhaps ] So who are the good guys and who are the bad guys in all this and who is "The Devil" and who is allegedly "God" Be very careful which side you choose for it may be the last choice you will ever make. Choose correctly and perhaps you get off this merry go round of insanity called life. Choose wrong and it begins all over again. Hell on Earth ... until you finally understand and make the correct choice and are allowed to move on into and become part of the light. You need no one or nothing ... other than ... self to get you there. But again if that was known what of the power brokers and the war mongers and the fear peddlers ... Look again at Hieronymus Bosch's images again and imagine that all his nightmarish images are simply our own manufactured fears and then remember the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. And if there is evil it feeds on our fears and that is and will be the secret to survival in my opinion, a conquering of our own fears. Cheers Don Barone
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 1, 2009 12:26:46 GMT -5
Dear Don, Thanks for finding the cross! Nice to hear you chiming in here! I've always been a fan of Hieronymus Bosch and,as you recall,I began this thread with,"Our inner state becomes our outer environment," no matter which world we find ourselves in...
You have written: "You need no one or nothing...other than...self to get you there."
I agree that,ultimately,that that is the case. However,the greek word for "church" is "ecclesia" which means,"Those who are called together."
Our true enlightenment and spiritual transformation is ultimately our own responsibility and yet,we don't live in a vacuum,we all have an influence upon each other. We rise and fall together. Even hermits have an influence on the whole interconnected web of being. We can assist each other by striving together.As far as the Orthodox are concerned, even those no longer present in this world can assist us if we so desire.
All this is not to say that "organized religion" has not been misinterpreted and purposely misused, because,obviously,it has. And yet,I believe,(And it has been my experience...)That there is still a baby in that bathwater!
You mention "Medieval times" but those were people trying to get away from the Roman church.(And even the alchemists tended to band together into "Invisible Colleges...)
Orthodoxy and every other genuine spiritual community of people,goes back before the abuses of the church in Rome.
To each his own though,as far as I'm concerned!
Best wishes and,as I say,nice to here from you.
P.S. Have you seen "Forbidden Planet" recently? Great flick!
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 1, 2009 15:14:40 GMT -5
One of the things I have stressed in this conversation,is my belief that it can be very helpful to have a specific spiritual PRACTICE when it comes to accomplishing the aims of our spiritual life. And this implies something,"organized," something that has been handed down and agreed upon as being effective in accomplishing our desired ends.
There's nothing wrong with relying on the guidance of others who have demonstrated the fact that they have achieved what we ourselves hope to achieve as well. There is no need,necessarily,for each individual to re-invent the wheel,(unless we really want to...) We are all standing on each others shoulders. It's just a matter of who's shoulders we choose to stand on.
Christianity has,deservedly,a really bad reputation,however,there is always a grain of truth and a remnant of the genuine article for those who care to find it. It would be a shame to discount it out of hand as a possibility,just because we have had some bad experiences with some bad examples of it.
Orthodoxy is primarily an otherworldly mystical reality that overshadows our terrestrial globe. For the Orthodox,in general, it is a given that the material world which presents itself to us and that we are most familiar with, is a thin veneer which emerges out of and is permeated by a deeper reality which determines our fate. That only in relationship to this deeper reality can we really begin to live life and that it is all really only a matter of PERCEPTION that keeps us from being aware of this deeper reality at all times. Our culture has neglected to teach us HOW to perceive the fullness of being,(for some odd reason?) And it is the Churches job to pick up the slack where western civilization has dropped the ball.
For me,it always comes back to "The secret of the universe" and how can we free ourselves from the undesirable elements of our own inner state? How can we best manage to graduate from"The school of hard knocks" into an unending life of goodness,truth,beauty,love,peace,joy,delight,etc.etc. which I firmly believe is what we are INTENDED for.
And if being,"Called together" with other like-minded individuals to accomplish these ends is part of our personal journey,than,so be it!
(And if not,not.)
Well,I think I've used just about as many cliches as I can possibly have fit into a couple of paragraphs for one day. What do you think?
P.S. The murderer you mentioned,Charlotte, was probably Barabbas, whom the Jewish elders preferred to have released from custody by Pontius Pilate in place of Jesus, just before he was condemned to be crucified.
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 2, 2009 9:24:36 GMT -5
As far as I can see, Don, we are journeying together right here and now, and agree with renwdimgink, in my words:
You say that no help is required. I wouldn't have gotten anywhere, wouldn't be sitting here without the help of the "right" Teachers, again my Philosophy Teacher: "No one has ever guessed their way to Enlightenment or Truths", as evident on various boards, people endlessly guessing.
Even when disenchanted with the material world, or because of it, we keep searching whether we know or not what for. I left the to me dead in Spirit Catholic Church at 18, I think, it was "allowed" to leave, that doesn't mean I stopped looking up, mostly wandering trough forests and meadows, a good Church.
If we're all "in the same ship moving on", the bad and good guys are us, remembering the General sending out soldiers to find the enemy, they coming back and reporting "we have found the enemy and they are us." This in the greater.
"Be careful which side you choose for it will be the last choice you will ever make." I understand what you mean, but why must we choose "sides", another hindrance? "Come and partake of as much as you want", and if so inclined, go deeper into the mystery of whence, why, and where we are going. "What of the power brokers and war mongers and fear peddlers"? Let them broker and monger and peddle, their empire turning to sand every so often, not deminishing one iota the Empire of our Mind, Love and our Soul, untouchable.
I am aware of what my replies on this thread may "sound" like, but I am also cognisant of the greater history of the Orthodox Church from my studies in Philosophy, and later the medievil ages, the Renaissance, and of course, the Life and times of Sir Francis Bacon, a man guided by Divine Providence, a claim the Founding Fathers of America made as well. The language of the entire Masonic and Rosicrucian movement in Germany, France, Italy, Bohemia, Austria and England permiated with petitions for God's blessings. All has degenrated.
From that history I know, and agree with renwdimgink that the Catholic Church broke away from the original Orthodox Chuch, as discerned by the Neoplatonist Pletho, and again it was Plato, whom I quoted in my first reply, showing the way. Every endeaver, the great Sage advises, one should begin with a prayer to "God, the creator of every kind of intelligible and seperate substance and hence of our entire Universe", and Ficino the great son of Plato, saw "perfect compatibilty of Philosophy and Religion, harmony between Platonic Philosophy and Christian Revelation."
And what of so many great minds, the Kings of Jerusalem and Saints before them, about the 11th century? Deeply religious men and women and miracle workers. "Oh man look at man", declared Hildegard von Bingen, agreeable to "we are INTENDED to be God like". We talked about Arthur "the one and future King", immortal in that he also represents Jesus. And there are little miracles in our daily lives, when as if by chance we are given what we need at the exact moment, the woundres feeling coming with it unmistakeable.
There is an endless list of, and quotations from God realized Persons and Saints depicted pointing to words or symbols in books, and countless Icons to be contemplated. It is an immense ocean of knowledge, and as of late I hear many more people expressing the wish to partake of something greater than they are, so we're rowing gently down the stream.
For all these and other reasons, I like the Orthodox Church, and can see a necessary specific practice handed down to lead to the discovery of "The Secrets of the Universe".
Having never choosen any side, I can easily see in my life how I was led over the years from one Teacher to the the next until I found Mr. Hall about whom gathered the best of Teachers, in sympathy with my heart, ringing all the right bells, which Fern told me is a Soul response of remembering, and through her I met Francis Shakespeare of Universal Mind, who I feel knew and can teach me all secrets in harmony with the Orthodox Church.
A great weekend to everyone!
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 2, 2009 15:19:47 GMT -5
Bravo Charlotte! Although,I Think I understand where Don is coming from. People have been burned by "organized religion" not doing it's proper job and,in fact,doing just the opposite! This is why I,myself,was so surprised to discover Orthodoxy. I came from a very eclectic,new agey kind of background,(as is evident from many of my posts...) So imagine my surprise when I discovered that what I felt most drawn to when it came down to it,was the original version of Christianity,that a genuine Christianity still existed in this day and age!
I wanted to say a little bit about the services themselves. The services are one of the most incredible elements of Orthodoxy and an incredible opportunity to expose ourselves to the most beneficial of invisible forces.
The Divine services are a spiritual forcing house,(Which is a very British way of saying, a"greenhouse" but "Forcing house" describes more accurately what takes place in a greenhouse.) In the midst of them we expose ourselves to the palpable influences of the invisible realities thus invoked. The language of the services,(not the languages which the services are spoken in,which are every language of any nation,but the POETIC language...) act in the same manner as the Icons,the architecture,the vestures,the incense,etc.,they are all windows into the Kingdom of heaven through which unparalleled Grace pours through.
The Divine liturgy which is offered on Sundays and on other Feast days,was written by St.John Chrysostom in the early 300's. You can walk into any Orthodox Church around the world and participate in this same service in whatever the local language may be for the past 1700 years! (There is something to be said for such consistency.)
The service that St.John wrote was adapted from an earlier version written by St.James the brother of the Lord,(His step-brother actually,and the First Bishop of Jerusalem whose martyrdom is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament and also,the author of the Epistle of James also found in the new testament.)
All of the other services of the Church are of equal antiquity,some stretching back to the Jewish temple services,such as the psalms that are chanted and sung.
There are five cycles of services which superimpose themselves over each other in an ever-shifting pattern which are always the same and yet,always different according to the hour of the day,the day of the week,the week of the year and the season of the year.
Accordingly,parts of the services are always the same and other parts always change to reflect the different times and seasons and events we are celebrating.
There is actually a service for every three hours through-out the day,(Of course MOST of them are only said in the Monasteries and even there,they tend to combine several of them at a time in a row.) Each day of the week has it's own special dedication. The services of each week are sung in a cycle of eight different tones,each tone bringing out a different aspect of the service being sung. Every day of the year is dedicated to many different Saints of the Church who have lived throughout the past Two thousand years( and more...) There are twelve major feasts throughout the year dedicated to The Lord and The Mother of God. There are four major fasts in the year. Some of these Feasts and Fasts are on fixed dates and some are movable,(In relationship to Pascha,whose date changes every year.)
There is one particular service on Saturday evening,(or the night before any Divine Liturgy,) which is a vigil intended to prepare us for the next mornings service. These services are some of the most beautiful and involved where we learn the most about what we are about to celebrate.
All of this is just scratching the surface of what the services are like. I hope it serves as some kind of introduction.
As always,the best way is to come,taste and see for yourself!
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 3, 2009 0:23:19 GMT -5
Here is part of the service we sang this evening in preparation for tomorrow: www.anastasis.org.uk/myrrh-mat.htm To me,the poetic language is both exquisite and deeply Theological. ENJOY!
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 3, 2009 9:57:51 GMT -5
Good thing I was not burned by organized Religions for I never turned back or looked for another after I left the Catholic.
I was a bit defensive Don, sorry, where are you? I just read you were banned at GH, an informative board, did you go overboard as some posters do, it must be said.
This, as well as previous introductions, renwdimgink, are always helpful, and I can relate to the "forcing house", the language spoken differing with nations, the dearest to my Heart poetic language being the same, and can indeed appreciate cycles superimposing themselves in ever shifting patterns but always the same.
I read the text of the Saturday evening service, unusual again, but gleaned some familiar ideas and thoughts I had made my own through the message, yea, and also the greater Teaching underneath the text.
Some years back I was sent an Easter postcard from Egypt, depicting the rolled away stone of Jesus' tomb round and the entrace square.
Thanks for bringing the name of the murderer Barabbas to my memory; and also Forbidden Planet, which I purchased at least a month ago and watched several times, but forgot to mention, it being super-seeded by later points of interest.
We have cloudy skies this morning, but all in all the day is getting better after being woken by a nightmare of me standing by a door with two envelopes of import, I was told, and ringing the bell repeatedly but no one answered, leaving me feeling totally dejected.
It is no secret that for me, always, Grace flows through poetic language, "exquisite and deeply Theological", hence my preeminent love for Francis and next other Great Poets, and the excellent language spoken in Elizabeth's time, and by the Queen herself, and now I can't help myself, having neglected Poetry for too long, though always with me and pertinent to the problem under consideration, and to my friend Don Barone.
Immortal Hamlet speaks "by the rights of our fellowship, by the consonancy of our youth, by the obligation of our ever-present love, and by what more dear a better proposer can change you withal...." None.
To Guildenstern, who was sent for, and the mysteriously significant first two sentences:
"I will tell you why. So shall my anticipation prevent your discovery, and your secrecy to the King and Queen moult no feather. I have of late - but wherefore I know not - lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed, it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontary; this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire - why, it appeareth nothing to me but a foul and pestilent congregation of vapours. What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! How infinate in faculties! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! And yet to mewhat is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me - nor women neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so."
Betaking myself to the Green House.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 3, 2009 20:20:03 GMT -5
First heard this on Broadway when I was 13 years old!(Lord have mercy! how time flies...)
This again is one of the reasons I love Orthodoxy, the language of the worship services rival Shakespeare.
Now, one of the things you may have noticed is the one place that the Orthodox are rather strict and that is concerning the administration of the Sacraments. It's definitely not like in the roman church where anyone can walk in and receive Holy Communion-"Body of Christ,Body of Christ,Body of Christ" like an assembly line.
In the Orthodox Church,only those who have been Baptized and or Chrismated into the Church and have prepared themselves properly through prayer,fasting,confession and absolution,receive.
Why? Because Holy Communion is a Sacrament and as such is an element of an entire life of Sacramental Initiation.
The sacraments are the penultimate spiritual food and medicine whose aim is our Purification,Illumination and Deification. And an Initiation is the BEGINNING of something that,with our cooperation reaches the ends they are INTENDED for.
More later on this...Have to help make dinner now.
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 4, 2009 8:39:26 GMT -5
I remember "Hair", and time has flown.
I read most of the text, at time subtle in language, again. It was part of the Liturgy yesterday. I noticed a crucified Jesus on the cross carried through the church, but the risen Christ is definately emphasised, and also "forever and ever onto ages and ages", open, not Amen.
I thought not all people partake of the Holy Communion for the reasons you mention, though "Christmated into the Church" is new to me, as well as the spiritual food given by spoon.
I must admit to looking around some again, the Church itself feels a goodly place to be in.
Right off the Freeway there is at least a square mile China Town, which one would never suspect in Alhambra. Half way there I considered turning back, feeling a run down my stocking, pardon me, but how utterly tacky is that, walking into a Church with to my horror an inch wide run. Fortunately it was on the inside and I hoped no one will notice, then thought I really don't care and kept driving.
It's a beginning, I do what the other Parishioners do, save going up to Communion or kissing the Cross, knowing instinctively I'm not entitled, and if I'm uncertain I do nothing. I can scarcely believe that I'm actually going to Church.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 4, 2009 9:14:05 GMT -5
Many people mistake the RECEPTION of the Sacrament for the end product,rather than recognizing it as just the beginning of a process of cooperation between the Grace of God and our own free will,which may only reach it's complete fulfillment in the next world.
There are seven Sacraments in the Orthodox Church,some of which are bound up with one of the five cycles of liturgical life,"The Great cycle of life," which is comprised of events that,(Ideally or inevitably,) only take place ONCE in our lives, such as Baptism,Chrismation, Marriage and Holy orders.
The other three,Confession/Absolution,Holy Communion and Holy Unction, may take place many times throughout our lives.
To receive the Sacraments with a proper disposition and then to continue to cooperate with them produces the most expedient means of Purification/Illumination/Deification, which is their entire reason for being.
The Sacraments,it is said,have their roots in another world,the plant grows here in this world and their fruit is gathered in the Kingdom of Heaven.
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 4, 2009 9:29:16 GMT -5
Good for you! It truly is amazing how many unusual things can come up to try to keep us from doing anything that might be beneficial for us,(but certainly,a run in my stocking isn't one that I PERSONALLY have ever experienced!)
Orthodox worship engages the whole being,heart,mind body and soul,thus,we do A LOT of crossing ourselves,(essentially,everytime the Holy trinity is mentioned or anything is said three times,in honor of the trinity in unity.) We do a LOT of kissing of the Icons,the Cross the Clergyman's hand and anything or everything else in the Church which is part of our Salvation,(Including each other...) We bow to the Image of God in each other and to catch Blessings sent our way.
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 4, 2009 19:27:26 GMT -5
One of the most basic principles in the Orthodox way of life is,"To hold in honor the things of God." This means,first and foremost,all of our fellow human beings,each created in the Image of God,each with the exact same potential to regain their lost "Likeness"to god. Next,all of God's creation,our environment,which we have been entrusted to be good stewards of. To have been given "Dominion" over all of creation means to have the responsibility to,"Tend and keep it," to help maintain it's wholeness,balance and essential integrity,NOT to "Dominate"it,as some have mistakenly interpreted it. And,lastly,the Church and everything connected with it as,"The Ark of Salvation,"wherein everything needful for our complete redemption has been carefully preserved and handed down. The Sacrament of Chrismation takes place after Baptism,(usually directly afterwords,) as the newly Illumined is anointed with oil that has been especially Blessed for this purpose,as a seal of the gifts of the Holy Spirit conferred at Baptism. The oil that is used in these services is given to the priest (or Bishop,as the case may be,) by the Bishop who ordained Him. A portion of that oil came from the Bishops who ordained that Bishop.A portion of THAT oil came from the Bishops who ordained THOSE Bishops.And so on and so forth,stretching all the way back to the Apostles and the FIRST Bishops that they originally ordained. As such it is a physical symbol of a direct Apostolic succession up to today. Now,of course,the roman church also claims to have a direct Apostolic succession as well from the Apostle Peter. The only problem with that, is that they stopped BELIEVING and PRACTICING what Peter taught around 800ad! So their Apostolic succession does them little good. By their fruits ye shall know them. Baptism and Chrismation are the doorways into all of the other Sacraments of the Church. They all take place on a personal basis,as part of a personal relationship with one's Priest or Bishop. Traditionally,the catecumen prepares for a shorter or longer time until they feel that they are truly ready to enter into the fullness of the Orthodox Christian tradition. Holy communion is at the center of every Orthodox Sacrament and is received immediately for the first time after Chrismation. My wife and I were both Baptized in the mad river,(No kidding...) here in northern ca. around 1985. This was before we were married,(or even had considered the possibility...) It was August when I was Baptized and it was freezing cold! My wife was Baptized several months earlier and it was so cold,she literally thought she was going to die when they dunked her. I had been on the spiritual path for many years up until then and really didn't expect much from this ritual,however,much to my surprise,I felt doors opening up inside of me that I never knew were there. I am ever at your service with any other questions you may have about any of this. Hopefully,one of these days you may meet Bishop Maxim. I think you will really like him a lot. He is a wise and loving Pastor of His flock. www.westsrbdio.org/latest_news/Spring2009/Pascha_April_19_2009/images/DSC_0138.JPG
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 4, 2009 19:40:28 GMT -5
P.S. Everyone is welcome to come up after communion to kiss the cross and receive a piece of Blessed bread. The Priest will probably say,"You're new here aren't you? How did you find out about us?" And you can say,"Some crazy guy I've been having a conversation with on the internet recommended I come check it out..."
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 5, 2009 8:40:09 GMT -5
Thank you for all the information, realizing how a Novice I am, but it's been only my second visit, and on my way (with the run) I thought exactly that, i.e., things coming up to stop us from doing something good for ourselves.
Portion of the anointing oil for Chrismation, a new word for me, streching back all the way to the Apostles and the First Bishop (of Jerusalem?) is astonishing and wonderful. Jerusalem is mentioned during the Liturgy.
Both times I did go up to be given a piece of the blessed bread, last time three actually, maybe Father Checo with the kindly/happy smile thought I needed an extra portion seing I am a newcomer. I am sure an opportunity to talk with him will present itself, and if he should ask how I came to be there I shall tell him just that, being true. I am also sure I will meet Bishop Maxim at an appropriate time and looking forward to that occasion.
I have to read again and think on all you said after work, today is my sisters Birthday and I have to look for a Greeting Card now.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 5, 2009 12:54:00 GMT -5
Here is a good article about "Making the sign of the cross" (except for one typo-After the number 1. In the sentence beginning,"We place our thumb and first two fingers together in a point," it should continue,"and our last TWO fingers...") www.orthodox.net/articles/about-crossing-oneself.htmlYes.There is a lot of "Church etiquette" to learn. None of it is simply arbitrary,however,but all has deep symbolic meaning and,for those who attend to it consciously,it becomes a conduit for powerful blessings to descend upon us AND flow through us. There is a great book,entitled,"The lives of the Holy Apostles" www.holyapostlesconvent.org/HacWebStore/product_info.php?products_id=22&osCsid=ca1deea6863727e2a8cde33426c92fed which goes into great detail about the lives of each of the Apostles,where they went after Christs Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost,who they evangelized,communities they formed and how they ended their lives,(Almost all of them where eventually martyred. It wasn't an easy job being an Apostle...) Each one of them ordained many Priests and Bishops to serve the faithful before they left to preach somewhere else.Then those Bishops made more Priests and Bishops and it spread from there. What we think of as "The New Testament" was just a bunch of letters and accounts of Jesus' life which were passed around from community to community. It wasn't until 325ad ,after Christianity had been legalized in the Roman Empire,that they were gathered together into one volume.(And those,of course were rare and hand-copied.) So,it's always something to here the Protestant Christians say,"Well,we just believe whats in the bible." What did Christians believe and do for the first three hundred years when there was no "Bible" as we know it? And,not only that,but these first Christians had something more than that,besides having,"The Bible," they had HOW the Apostles,who wrote the Bible,taught to understand what they had written and how to make use of it in such a way that it would work to transform and transfigure the human person. This is exactly what Orthodoxy has gone to great lengths to preserve and hand down unchanged-the Apostolic doctrine. Not really to change the subject,but on a different tangent:My eldest son is fascinated by all the new technology and is always asking me what the Church's position will be on things like nano-tech,cloning,genetic engineering,ect. He understands my own personal opinion that most of these are only caricatures of our own natural abilities that we need to develop on our own or else,means of "getting around" the consequences of the fall,rather than dealing with the actual causes themselves. however,in the end,it usually comes down to a realization that,technology itself, is more or less neutral, and that it is human nature that is the real problem that needs to be addressed. Human nature,which somehow,always takes the greatest"Boon to mankind" and turns it into a weapon! We are on this "Journey to the light" together and,at some point,that journey takes us,face to face,with our own damaged human nature. This is where Orthodoxy comes in,(or whatever other traditional spiritual path that strikes one's fancy...) and provides a tried and tested means of actually DOING something about it! So,may God Bless us to continue to become new creatures altogether!
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 6, 2009 9:42:17 GMT -5
I have read several pages back so an overall picture of Church practice and meaning can take hold in mind, and I know what you mean by tending to it consciously. I did notice the thumb and two finger position, but not the remaining two fingers, now know the meaning, but not the reaching toward the ground?
Knowing practically nothing of the lifes of the Apostles, I ordered the book. Are the original letters of Jesus' life at the Vatican? I can appreciate the first three hundred years of disseminating first hand understanding of the Teachings and giving them down the generations.
I would agree on the problem of technolgy as opposed to addressing human nature, we touched upon before, but have no doubt that in keeping on the path toward the Light we will become wholly enlightened to join those who lived and live blameless.
Blessings and a good day to you and the World.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 6, 2009 11:08:03 GMT -5
Reaching down to the ground after making the sign of the cross is an expression of devotion,humility,respect for God's Divine Authority as well as of bringing God's will and blessings all the way down into earth.
I've just finished re-reading "The lives of the Holy Apostles" with my ten yr old for his history class. The life of St.John the Theologian and evangelist is particularly incredible and was written by his fellow-worker in Christ,Procorus,so,it is extremely first-hand.
There are original manuscripts of the Gospels and Epistles in many places,(Mt.Athos for one.) The Vatican has many from it's earliest centuries when Rome was the center of Orthodoxy,(until they stepped away from it in the 800's) Then they accumulated many more Orthodox treasures when the crusaders sacked Constantinople during the 4th crusade.
In reading the lives of any of the Saints,we always look for the "Prima vita",or first written account of their life, which is generally,the most accurate.
Enjoy your studies!
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 6, 2009 12:57:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 6, 2009 21:27:52 GMT -5
I sensed reaching to the ground may mean devotion, respect and humility, but thought it mat also mean God uniting Heaven and Earth.
I am looking forward to know something of the life of the Apostles, and thanks also for the information about the early manuscripts.
During work today I thought on the ending of your last post apropos doing something about our damaged human nature, and, speaking for myself, concluded that I have been doing that for some years, something like correcting my thoughts and actions I knew were wrong, nothing too detrimental.
Of course, our consideration here differs greatly from those relatively minor problems, still, I am doing something on this jouney to the Light. Meanwhile however, there is a life to be lived in the system of mundane world, either that or retiring to a Monastery living a Life wholly devoted to God, but as you remarked some time ago, one has to feel called to live such a life.
I know I am not thus called, but all the same aspire to reach the State of an enlightened creature and all the Wonders that come with it, to put it simply. Concerning the Jihad I came back to my original thinking, yes, we can progess but not force bad habits and the like out of our lives. I remembered speaking about this to a Lady who made a visit to a Monastery in Tibet. She was a smoker and trying to hide it she opened the window....a minute later there was a knock on her door and a Monk said: "When smoke, smoke!" So I am in agreement with the Monk, and also from experience, that minor and major things we don't like about ourselves have to be outlived and fall by the wayside naturally, lest they come back with a vengence.
Many a Catholic Priest, for instance, felt himself called and had the purest of intentions, but things are not that simple as brought out in "The Thornbirds", and other powerful things to be considered in the greater scheme of things. I sound as if I'm giving a lecture, pardon me, but all this moved through my mind today.
Thank you for the song, it too was playing in my mind when when you posted the first ones. I tried to find a fairly neutral one, alas, but living on Mediocria Firma, I like King Arthur and Merlin.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 7, 2009 2:09:30 GMT -5
The great thing about the Orthodox way of life is that it provides a way to Enlightenment in whatever walk of life we find ourselves in,no matter if we chop wood or carry water.
I agree,we cannot force bad habits out. Orthodoxy works from the other direction.It gives us a taste of Paradise,which is incomparably sweeter than our bad habits,which,as you say,"Fall by the wayside"quite naturally in comparison.
And the poor catholic Priests! It's a shame they forced them to be celibate!To be called to a spiritual life and then have such limited opportunities to express it. One of the many disastrous changes the roman church made.
And now for something completely different! I bet you're familiar with these guys and will appreciate the sentiment:
Till next time!
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 7, 2009 15:19:49 GMT -5
And this one says it all!
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 7, 2009 15:30:47 GMT -5
Ah gee. it cut off before the best part at the end.
Well, here's the lyrics anyway...http://www.metrolyrics.com/ducks-on-a-pond-lyrics-incredible-string-band.html
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 8, 2009 0:07:31 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 8, 2009 0:12:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Charlotte on May 8, 2009 9:19:42 GMT -5
Wow! I might say. What pretty and sweet tunes. I know TISB, but am not as familiar as with the MB, JA and Starship, GD et all.
The caterpillar and scarabea, watched two of the former here and wrote about it somewhere, the second one changed from a caterpillar into a puppa within a few hours hours hanging securely attached under the window sill steeped in his mysterious transformation, an aura round him and so still that the air about him hear'd. Watched the scarabea's on the Giza Plateau.
Many thoughts of the paradise island everywhere floating by listening and watching the ducks on the pond. You must have been a Hippy, pardon me. Schliemann didn't discover Troy, by the way, I watched the Documentary supposed to prove it.
And then my third love Jerry et all in concert, how he so purposely, gently and sweetly beckoned and called the people to his mind with his guitar, and we responded, and when he had everyone's undivided attention, he would shed light but not master, in his own words. In this he was unmatched, it was beautiful, for me sublime as to the heights he took me.
I wonder what Don edited?
We had an earthquake about a week ago of only about 4.5 magnitude of a relativel short duration, and the first thing I do, and most people do, we talk about it, is pray, and I suspect even the atheists do because there is no one else to turn too. The awesome power of even a tremor leaves one feeling utterly helpless.
One of those devoted Volunteers for America, that is for the New Jerusalem of Sir Francis Bacon, and yes, waiting for a Miracle to go where angels are.
Charlotte
|
|
|
Post by Don Barone on May 8, 2009 10:15:34 GMT -5
I wonder what Don edited?
Hi Charlotte I was going to insert the YouTube video directly into the posting but unfortunately Google has now added an advertisement to go along with it. Very annoying. I could download them and insert them from my hard drive but I don't think it is that important.
cheers Don Barone
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 8, 2009 11:38:55 GMT -5
I didn't get to be a REAL hippy because I was only 14 in1970 when I became a hippy,(and that was in Long Island,not San Francisco where the REAL hippys were...) But I did my best to catch up! And I didn't become a Dead head until I did finally get to SF many years later. Like it says on the side of the Filmore west: "They're not the best at what they do.They're the ONLY ones who do what they do!"
Fortunately for me,I also found God at the same time,when I was 14,so that tempered my "Hippy" way of life to some extent.
Obviously,I still love all of the music.
Later we can continue with "The three pillars of an Orthodox way of life" : Prayer,Fasting and Almsgiving.
|
|
|
Post by renwdimgink on May 9, 2009 0:40:38 GMT -5
But first-another one of my favorites:
|
|