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Post by Charlotte on Apr 5, 2009 7:27:23 GMT -5
True on all accounts.
Charlotte
Didn't mean to be so abrupt but had to drive to Mexico. I live in greater Los Angeles.
I know whereof you speak apropos the conscious awareness of feeling one's own and the whole worlds disharmony and imbalance.
However, I have experienced complete harmony with myself while clearly seeing disharmony in people all around me, and it really takes only a few words to lessen their concerns. Maybe that is a small part of the remembering.
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 6, 2009 1:39:46 GMT -5
Hmm. In that case, you are not far from our Bishop Maxim, whose Cathedral is in Alhambra,ca. And, not this coming Sunday, but the Sunday after next is the Feast of the Resurrection of Christ. It would really be something if you were able to attend. I will send you a link to their web site with all the details. I am also sending a link to a picture of myself, my wife, Barbara and two of our children, speaking with Bishop Maxim on one of His visits to our Parrish. The only one missing is my eldest son,(who was around somewhere, but didn't make it into the photo.) www.westsrbdio.org/latest_news/Visit_ImagesFall2007/NorthCal41.gifwww.westsrbdio.org/info/showarticle.php?article=church_alhambra
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 6, 2009 1:45:25 GMT -5
P.S. I am the funny-looking one standing up, on the left...
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 6, 2009 13:16:10 GMT -5
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 15, 2009 8:51:01 GMT -5
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 16, 2009 8:36:06 GMT -5
Beautiful Cathedral of St. Steven in Alhambra, maybe I'll go and have a look at it some time, which you seem to suggest that Orthodox Religion may have "The Secrets of the Universe", and who would not want to know.
I also looked at the Celebration pictures, seems to be a Patriarchal Religion, men to one side, women to the other, as in Islam, and also wearing identical and similar head coverings, perhaps coming from the same notion that women are impure, poor us. I really don't know the doctrine and how the Church views these things.
Thanks also for the personal picture of a happy and devoted family, nice to see.
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 17, 2009 1:15:34 GMT -5
Dear Charlotte, When approaching Orthodoxy, it is helpful to set aside all spiritual stereotypes and negative connotations. Everything about Orthodoxy is positive and has one aim in mind, (At the risk of repeating myself,) to restore the human person to their original blessed state while at the same time and in the same manner, preparing them to make a graceful transition into another kind of reality.
Orthodoxy is a Patriarchal religion in the sense that only men are ordained into the ecclesiastical hierarchy to serve the Church by administering the Sacraments to the congregation.
My wife and I owned and operated an Orthodox bookstore in Chicago after we were first married, (19 years ago...) Many women who visited us there asked us,"What role was there for women in the Orthodox Church? Can women be ordained to the priesthood?" I would invariably answer, that, "If they wanted to be ordained to the Priesthood, they should join the Episcopal church. However, if they wanted to become Saints, they should join the Orthodox Church!"
Becoming a Priest is no guarantee of attaining Sanctity, but becoming a Saint is.
Orthodoxy has produced the greatest number of Saints, both men and many,many women, than any other spiritual path that I am familiar with.
In fact, Women have very active roles within the Church. Many of the Elders of the Church have been Women who are entrusted with giving spiritual direction to those who are in need of it.
And, like Mary and Jesus at the wedding in Cana, it was Mary who came to Jesus and said,"Son, they have no more wine." While Men are Blessed to serve a particular function within the Church, nine times out of ten, it's the women who have to bring to the man's attention what it is he should be doing!
In the pictures, the men are on one side and the women on the other because we are celebrating in a Monastery, out of respect for the Monastics, who have taken a vow of celibacy.
And, who told you that Women cover their heads in Church because they are impure? Is THAT what they teach in Islam? Sounds like another one of those distortions of the original teachings as we discussed earlier about the true nature of Jihad as inner warfare.
According to St.Paul in Corinthians 10:11, Women should cover their heads in Church,"For the sake of the Angels." Why for the Angels? Because in the account in Genesis chapter 6, just before the flood, that, "The Sons of God saw the daughters of men and came down and took wives of them," Causing giants to be born and lots of other problems which led up to the flood.
In the same vein, women cover their heads in Church to remind the men that they are our sisters,our wives,our mothers and as such, deserve to be treated with the utmost of care,consideration and respect.
It's interesting, but, all of these questions have to do with the fact that human sexuality is seen in the Church as a Sacred Mystery. A Mystery, in the sense that it has to do with invisible realities which we, usually, don't perceive. Men and women are not the same. They are meant to be complimentary. And sex is, generally, the most misunderstood and misused aspect of our lives. The Church in recognition of these facts, provides very clear guidelines for those who wish to reach the totality of oneself.
This week is Holy week in the Church and this Saturday evening begins the Feast of the Resurrection of Christ.
By rising from the dead, Jesus has become the firstborn of many brethren (and sistren...)
Check out the schedule on their web site and see when you might like to go. I'm sure you will like Bishop Maxim. He's very young, but, very Theologically sound.
Needless to say,I will be very interested to see what kind of an experience you might have. (Probably none and you'll think," Who is this crackpot i've been listening to all this time? What does he know about the secret of the universe! Hmmpf!")
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 17, 2009 1:47:49 GMT -5
There was one other thing I wanted to say on this subject of human sexuality, (although, of course, we are just scratching the surface here...)
In the Orthodox Church there are two recognized paths which lead to Sanctity, marriage and monasticism. Outside of those two it becomes increasingly more difficult and demanding as evidenced by the lives of the many homeless wanderers,fools for Christ's sake and single people who live like monastics, by themselves, out in the midst of the world, whom the Church recognizes and remembers.
When I was about 33 years old, I made a prayer: "God," I said,"I'm getting old. As much as I love the monastery, I don't feel called to become a monk. If you want me to get married, you will have to send someone for me to marry, because I don't feel like looking around for someone. Of course, I wouldn't mind being a homeless wanderer all my life, if you will bless!
Within about three months from making that prayer, my wife-to-be walked into the Church I was attending in Boston at the time and I knew, instantly that she was the answer to my prayer. And within another six months or so, we were married. Ah. How romantic! And 19 years and three children later, we are still happily married. Not bad in this day and age...
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 17, 2009 10:11:33 GMT -5
P.S. Another extremely important addendum: Unless you are either a Bishop, or A Priest-Monk, all of the other clergy in the parishes out in the world, are married and have their own families.
The Roman church changed the nature of monasticism, from being an avenue of self-transformation, to an army of missionaries and social-workers and then forced ALL of the priests to be celibate, both with disastrous results ! (And the protestants simply did away with both...)
So, here again, is another, very active role for women in the Church. To be a Parish Priest's wife is no small thing. It is very much like the example of Jesus and Mary at the wedding at Cana.
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 18, 2009 8:34:14 GMT -5
Writing my reply, 'spiritual stereotypes and negative connotations' crossed my mind in the manner you mean it, but I thought by now you know my views and predisposition well enough to know how I meant it, being aware of the vow of celibacy, to which also belongs women cover their heads "for the sake of the Angels. Perhaps, and with due respect, a little credit is due to me.
Therefore also, I am not the kind of mind who would go into a bookstore of any religion and ask, "what's in it for women", as probably "Women-Liber's", as they are called, of shallow thinking might do, as I know the "origin" of the degenerated interpretation of why women are inferior, or "married to the Devil" as one Muslim showed me on the cover of a book, smiling, and I smiled back thinking..........and no way, and nothing to be gained, for me to tell him what I was thinking.
Even in the Western World, most men have this seemingly hardwired attitude of superiority ascribing little importance to women bringing to his attention what it is he should be doing. I do know that women and men are different, serving a different purpose, and meant to be complimentary, and understand "Son, they have no more wine".
You presume the I may have "none" experience by visiting the Orthodox Church, and if I thought you a crackpot knowing nothing about the secrets of the Universe, I would not be responding to you, Sir.
"God, if you want me to get married, you will have to send someone for me to marry, because I don't feel like looking around for someone - and three month later" you met your "wife-to-be - and within another six month or so, we were married". It sounds romantic and I am glad that it worked out so well and you are still happily married.
Here we have something in common, i.e., making a prayer to God for something and having it answered, never looking for anyone to have a close relationship or marry. There were four instances in my life when my Prayer was answered. One of them, a women offering me $60.000 without me ever asking, in response to asking God for help a few days prior, the other three of a personal nature. Sometimes God even hands me a paper clip or some other such small thing, when I need one, a certain feeling comes with it on such occasions. Does this mean God loves me even though I don't belong to the Orthodox Church? Yes, I know, our main concern here is about being restored to our original blessed state and preparing for a graceful transition into another kind of reality.
During the years I have also learned the Roman church, in your good words, changing the nature of monastesism, from being an avenue of self-tranformation, to an army of missionaries and social-workers and then forced ALL of the priests to be celibate, both with disastrous results. Not having to make quotation symbols.
I can discern and appreciate the example of Jesus and Mary at the wedding of Cana being very much like the active role of a Priest's wife.
Thank you for the good information.
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 18, 2009 15:27:35 GMT -5
Tonight is the big night. Feast of Feasts. Holy day of Holy days.
Services begin at 11pm. I would plan to get there at least a half an hour earlier, the place is going to be packed!
The service itself is like an opera. Most of it is sung. It is an opera in which the "audiance" not only watches, but participates in, as well.
There are 5 levels of attention with their corresponding blessings that one can experience during services...
BEST WISHES TO YOU!
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 19, 2009 5:50:23 GMT -5
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 19, 2009 6:27:55 GMT -5
You gave me adequate notice as to the Feast, but Alhambra is quite a distance from where I live and I am totally unfamiliar with area, and 11 is a bit late after a long day work and having to work today also. I might go this coming free weekend, maybe better with not so many people. I must be what is called an unsociable person.
As you describe it, I am sure it was a wonderful experience for you and family, and I'm sorry I missed out, and not meaning to be presumptous, maybe you asked a blessing for a homeless wanderer.
Best wishes and sincerely
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 20, 2009 1:06:39 GMT -5
I understand entirely. I was hoping that by some weird coincidence, that you lived right in Alhambra! But,I guess that was too much to hope for...
Anytime you make it there would be fine. Check their web site to see if Bishop Maxim will be there when you go. He travels a lot.
We had a great Pascha here. As usual, God gave me a little taste of the secret of the universe, which I will sum up for you here:
"In this world, which is defined by inescapable necessities, God will bless us, help us with everything and provide for us everything that is needful for our complete salvation. And in the next world: Limitless creative freedom in complete harmony with ALL-THAT IS with no more NEEDS of any kind."
From my youth up ,I have felt, very strongly, that anything God happens to show me, is not for me alone, but applicable to anyone and everyone who might be interested.
And so,I offer this little bit to you,(and whatever other invisible audience might be out there looking on...)
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 20, 2009 8:22:54 GMT -5
Beautiful and unusual painting, Christ in the process of bringing the two camps together. The people in the video scare me.
If I lived in Alhambra, I'm sure I would have heard of said Church. It's interesting that Alhambra, Spain, was built by an unknown architect, and intrigued me since long, as well as Andalusia, Granada, and Toledo.
I checked out their website some when you posted it. In any case, I have to go when time permits, my work being demanding, and hopefully I'm lucky to meet Bishop Maxim.
Thanks also for the summation, I have actually experienced complete harmony with all that is, having everything and needing absolutely nothing, so I do feel blessed. Something like George Harrison's "All I have is yours, all you see is mine".
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 20, 2009 12:00:17 GMT -5
You're right about the people in the video.It is kind of scary. It takes place every year on Pascha at the Church of the Holy sepulcher in Jerusalem. It's really crazy there, however, and nevertheless, a miracle takes place there every year during this service,(but, for some reason, they never report it in the mainstream media...)
The Patriarch of Jerusalem goes into the tomb where Jesus was buried,(which the Church there is built around,) with a bundle of 33 candles. He says certain prayers and at a certain point, this blue mist rises off of the tomb and ignites the candles. He then brings the lighted candles out of the tomb and lights the candles of the thousands of pilgrims candles who are there. Sometimes,the people outside the tomb, waiting for the Patriarch to come out, see flashes of blue light flashing around inside the Church as well and their candles light spontaneously as well. The flame on these candles is cool for the first half hour or so, and doesn't burn. You can see people washing themselves in the flames.
This has been happening every year since the Church was first built in the fourth century. I wonder why nobody ever told us about this before?
But it is crazy in there, between all of the different ethnic groups there and the Israeli police trying to preserve order and watch out for terrorists and all. It is like a madhouse in there. Definitely not a calm and serene service like most of the rest of ours generally are.
I have friends who live there and go who attest to how incredible it actually is thogh. I would like to go myself someday if possible.
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 21, 2009 8:21:45 GMT -5
Pascha is an interesting word for the Celebration.
I remember very vaguely, way back, hearing once of the blue mist phenomenon, mostly I remember seeing people washing their faces, I think, in the flame of the candles. To my thinking, the Patriarch with 33 candles speeks words of power causing the blue mist to rise, the process mysterious to me.
That it is not reported by mainstream media is not surprising, as such things belong in the world of the credulous as far as the "scientific only - we are now sophisticated people" reporters are concerned. I notice this many times when they report such things with tongue in cheek and certain looks to each other. I wrote to such a person once concerning the Sphinx, he actually wrote back and thought it was interesting and hoped to go to Egypt one of his days.
It would be great to see it for oneself.
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 23, 2009 11:20:52 GMT -5
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 24, 2009 7:44:16 GMT -5
Most intriguing, and hitherto unknown to me, but as my father used to say, there is someone in New York who doesn't know everything either. I can easily agree with Church Politics, yet it is known to so many.
If the Miracle was a fraud, I would think the fire would burn what it touches. I can see why it is called Holy Light and Holy Fire, alternatively.
St. Steven's Cathedral is easy to get to from where I live, two freeways and right off the second one, silhouetted by the way.
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 25, 2009 12:05:54 GMT -5
There you go! I'm looking forward to hearing about what it's like there. I've never been myself and would like to go sometime. I'll be going to St.Paisius monastery in the beginning of June to bring my daughter back home from school. I'm looking forward to that a great deal!
Take care. Best wishes to you.
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 26, 2009 17:59:55 GMT -5
There I went. Driving through the gates of St. Steven's with its Golden Domes I felt like entering a peaceful oasis, the grounds and large parking lot beautifully layed out and meticulously kept.
The Cathedral is beautiful and, as anticipated, differs from the norm, and what I for one, thought of as "orthodox". I was one of the first people and had time to look about seeing familiar figures portrayed somewhat more natural as is the Virgin Mother above the Altar. To my delight I saw Coat of Arms and other things I heard about, and not one cross with a crucified Jesus on it.
A grand Chandelier and smaller candle holders, lights and flowers everywhere, windows reminiscent of other Temples, but Father Checo and a few other people were already singing and I couldn't walk about.
The 3 hour Cermon does resemble an Opera in that people wander in during the singing before the Liturgy. I also liked the participation of the people, and "let us be attentive" every so often, but you all of this. I haven't crossed myself in a long time, but did as the Others, and it became more natural after a while. I also noticed people reaching to the ground before crossing themselves, and walking toward communion they had their arms crossed over their chest.
A stranger, I didn't want to walk up at the end and receive bread, but argh the entrance was closed and I had to, and a Lady behind me said to the Father "she is new here", and he gave me the bread with a smile and I felt totally awkward.
We walked out and the Lady asked, "are you Armenian", huh, no, I said, I am German. She said "we're having lunch now, would you like to join us?" Double huh, people all around us causing me to be uncomfortable, "Thank you, maybe next time." Smiling, she said, "I understand". In all, it was an uplifting experience.
Alhambra is not as far as I thought, 32 m from where I live. Looking for the Cathredral I crossed Hilliard and Hampton St., so familiar from my studies apropos Bacon. Seeing the Freeways merging with the one I took, I shortened my way back by 7 miles. Not that it mattered, it was such a gorgeous day that half way home I thought I should have gone in the opposite direction for a long drive in the the San Bernadino Mountains.
I lived in Arizona for 3 month, 1 hour west of Phoenix in the Harquahalla Valley. My cat Schlimpi and I almost wilted in the unbearable heat, with airconditioning, but the so awesome starry night sky almost made up for it. Almost, one day we just took off due north and ended up in Tuba, then back near the Pacific.
It's probably more than what you wanted to hear/read. I understand better now:
Peace be with you!
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 27, 2009 13:52:02 GMT -5
Congratulations! I am so glad that you were able to go!
I would like to, at this time, to go into a little more detail about "The five levels of attention and their corresponding blessings" which it is possible to experience during the Divine services.
1st level of attention: Our body is in the Church building but our mind is somewhere else entirely,(What will I be doing later on today? What shall I have for lunch? Wasn't that fun last night...etc.,etc.) It is very rare for us,in our present condition to,"Be Here Now", (As Ram Das so cleverly put it...) And yet, God blesses us just for showing up.
2nd level of attention: We're in Church and we're actually paying attention to what is going on. We are looking at the Icons,observing the architecture,listening to the prayers that are being said,we're trying to understand all of the symbolism involved,we're trying to understand what it all is supposed to mean and we're asking ourselves this all important question,"IF all of this were ACTUALLY TRUE, what would the implications be?"
In this state of attention and inquiry, very often, it is possible that we might have flashes of insight into the true nature of what is taking place around us. God blesses this big time.
3rd level of attention: Over the course of time,through instruction,study,insight and personal experience, we have come to believe the truths of the faith and to want for ourselves what it offers us. We attend services,paying attention to what is taking place there. We make the prayers our own,meaning what is said in them from the heart. We are participating fully in the services,singing our parts,making the responses,fully engaged in heart,mind,body,soul and all of our senses. God blesses us mightily in ways we can hardly imagine. A protective bubble of Grace surrounds us at all times ,keeping us from harm and providing all things needful for us.
4th level of attention: Essentially, the same as the last, except that we begin to experience and perceive directly the invisible realities that we are setting into motion with our prayers and the beings and forces with which we are actually in communicating with-the Saints,the angels, our departed loved ones,and the Lord Himself,etc. Unimaginable degrees of blessings going from grace to grace.
The 5th level of attention is kind of like the first but completely it's opposite: Our body is in the Church building but our soul has been translated into Paradise where ineffable mysteries are revealed to us. Where eye has not seen, and ear has not heard the good things that God has prepared for us. Incomparable blessings stretching forth from this world into the next.
Welcome to the Orthodox Church!
Next time "The life of sacramental Initiation within the Church as a means of Purification/Illumination/Deification."
And, believe, it or not,we're just scratching the surface of what the Church has to offer to help us to accomplish our complete transformation and transfiguration.
We were created to be like God! It is simply amazing the power that the world has had to systematically lower our expectations! But no more. Not for us and all of those we care to reach out to.
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 27, 2009 16:33:34 GMT -5
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 28, 2009 8:49:55 GMT -5
Considering all you wrote, and I read, I felt compelled to go.
Thank you for saying a few words of the five levels of attention, reminding me of "let us be attentive" impinging clearly on my ear every time, and as I said, I liked the uplifting and repeated message of "HE HAS RISEN" as opposed to the mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
Actually, I was not thinking of what I will do later, or food of little importance to me, having gone days without any nor feeling hungry, but found myself more in the second level of attention, and truly, I did have one of these flashes of insight you note, of the true nature of what was taking place in the Church filled with Light in that fleeting moment, a stayed inspiration and great encouagement to continue.
Being surrounded by Home Boy country, Alhambra itself seemed much nicer than I thought, at least at first glance.
Saint Paisius Monestary looks like a beautiful place in the high desert, a ranch with animals, trees and native cactus, equally cultivated and maintained as St. Steven's. I can imagine your daughter enjoying her stay there.
Thank you for inviting me!
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 29, 2009 14:04:19 GMT -5
Yes. Orthodoxy has an entirely different orientation than any of the other,So called, "denominations" that we have become familiar with here in the west. Before continuing with this idea of "Sacramental initiation" I wanted to say something about the demographics of a typical Orthodox Parrish community. However,I just happened to peek at another thread here,your conversation with Don entitled,"Rewriting Genesis" where he was talking about returning to Eden and mentioned "The flaming sword" set up to guard the way back in. This is exactly what the Icon I sent you for Pascha is meant to depict. Here is another: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a5/Har_hell_Hermitage2.jpg According to Orthodox Theology,the very first thing Jesus did when He was crucified was to reopen the gates of Paradise,go down into Hades and free all the righteous souls who had been stuck in there up until that moment and bring them up into Paradise. As well as the "Good thief" crucified with Him,to whom He said,"This very day you will be with me in Paradise." And now we,as well may pass directly from death into life. Got to go for now.People waiting for me out here in the real world...
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 30, 2009 0:43:15 GMT -5
The demographics of a typical Orthodox Parrish is like a series of concentric circles. The outer circle consists of mainly ethnic,cradle born Orthodox Christians from other countries who only come out of the woodwork for major feast days a few times a year. The rest of the time they are busy being caught up in either chasing or enjoying "The American Dream."
The next circle consists of both,ethnic Orthodox and American converts who come to Church more regularily,but are also,more or less caught up in the American dream.
The next circle are the people whose lives are centered around the Church,who always come to services,who do everything there is to do for the Church and,in general, are striving to live genuine spiritual lives.
There is one more circle which kind of interconnects with the last circle of people who are actively striving to make real advancement in their spiritual lives. These people can usually be recognized by the fact that they go,as often as possible,to visit various Monasteries.
The parrishes form an essential part of our spiritual life,however,No matter how good any particular parrish may be,it is at the monasteries that we find real spiritual guidance.
Keep in mind that all of this,although providing many benefits for us in the here and now,is really in the buisness of preparing us for ANOTHER KIND OF REALITY that we will all find ourselves in,sooner or later...
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Post by Charlotte on Apr 30, 2009 8:36:15 GMT -5
Thank you for the second Icon, I see an angel holding a cross reminiscent of the cross at Fr. Seraphim's grave, the other angel a flame and a heart, it appears.
I remember the line, "This very day you will be with me in Paradise", and thought why would Jesus take a thief to Paradise with him, but as usual didn't bother to ask since answers were never forthcoming.
The four circles of the demographics of an Orthodox Parish are similar to other "denominations", I thought they were more "orthodox", i.e., more strict as I thought of orthodoxy.
In part, you anticipated me with your description of chasing or living the American Dream, in that I was surprised seeing mostly late model expensive and luxery cars, leaving me feeling like a poor church mouse with my Honda, but only for a second.
I forgot to mention that I also liked the bells ringing during the Liturgy. I haven't been able to closer observe the many and various paintings, Saints, names, and symbols, but saw two dear to my heart, so I'll go earlier this Sunday, but having been alone for so many years, I don't think I'm ready to mingle with the Faithful yet, if ever, but leave it open.
Charlotte
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Post by renwdimgink on Apr 30, 2009 10:33:01 GMT -5
I would say,that,in general,a greater percentage of Orthodox Christians understand and practice their faith,however,many of the ethnic Orthodox who have come here from other countries,(most of them,until only recently that were communist...) were unprepared for how subtly "The American Dream" can leech away one's faith. They thought they could have both(as do many Americans,for that matter...) and,perhaps it is possible,but I doubt it,the two are pretty much mutually exclusive as far as I can tell.
But Orthodoxy is such that,anyone who pays closer attention to it,tends toward the light.
On the other hand though,Orthodoxy is not "strict" in the sense that,if you don't follow a bunch of rules you get kicked out or ostracized. It's more like,the Church sets before us everything it has to offer for our complete conversion and entire salvation and says,"Come and partake of as much of it as you want"
If you partake of a little,it will work a little bit. If you partake of a lot,it will work a lot. But,for the most part,it's pretty much up to us. So,with that in mind,it's to it's credit how many people who are involved choose to enter more deeply into it.
One more quick note: The Icons are "Windows into Paradise" that we use to help us communicate with the beings they represent. For the Orthodox,the veil between this world and the next is very thin...
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Post by renwdimgink on May 1, 2009 0:32:23 GMT -5
There were actually two thieves,one on either side.One said,"If you're the Son of God,why don't you save yourself and us also?" The other rebuked the first thief saying," we deserve our punishment for the crimes we have committed,but this man has done nothing!" Then turning to Jesus he asks,"Lord,remember me when you come into your Kingdom." (Which is something I also pray often.) There is a slanted bar on the bottom of Orthodox crosses which represent these two thieves. hawkeye.ngcsu.edu/~HMMART1480/csci1200/teacherwebsite2pm/orthodox%20cross(2).jpg
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Post by renwdimgink on May 1, 2009 0:34:00 GMT -5
Sorry.that link didn't work! It was supposed to be a picture of an Orthodox cross.
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