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Post by Charlotte on Dec 4, 2003 10:35:21 GMT -5
Minding Gurdjieff for several days, I moved a table to find "Meetings with Remarkable Men", and on the floor lay "The Teachers of Gurdjieff" by Rafael Lefort, so I start with it.
"Gurdjieff--a major teacher, mystic and prophet to his followers--a charlatan to those who rejected him.
Gurdjieff numbered among his adherents Dr. Maurice Nicoll, who studied under Jung, P.D. Ouspensky, Kenneth Walker, Orage, editor of the influential "New Age", Frank Lloyd Wright and a whole host of others who lived to bless, curse or forget him."
Gurdjieff was born in Armenia, "probably" in 1866. His mother was Armenian and his father Greek. "The portrait Gurdjieff draws of his father, a well-known ashokh, or bard, suggests some form of participation in an oral tradition streching back to mankind's distant past", writes Jacob Needleman, Professor of Philosophy, San Francisco State University, who, incidentally was the mentor of my philosophy teacher.
George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff "established himself, in 1922, in the Chateau du Prieuré, at Avon near Fontainbleau, the pupils and disciples of this man variously descibed him as the 'twentieth century Cagliostro' and Master. His methods attracted wide attention and publicity, but no matter what attacks were made upon him the 'forest philosophers', as they were called, continued to attract more and more adherents."
Rafael Refort decided to go in search of the teachers of Gurdjieff, and found them in countries and cities very much in the news currently: Jerusalem, Damascus, Istambul, Turkey, Syria, Irak, Iran, Afghanistan, Kerbala, and Bagdad, which "was the centre of dervish lore."
"The connection between Gurdjieff and the dervishes is apparent throughout his writings. Some of the movements of his dances are dervish ritual movements, while others are movements from the Moslem prayer", says Lefort.
Searching for the miraculous
Charlotte
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Post by JohnDMiller on Dec 4, 2003 13:46:07 GMT -5
Hello Charlotte
I copied this for my own info.
Regards John
GURDJIEFF
The Anatomy of a Myth
Book review by Anthony Campbell. Copyright © Anthony Campbell (2000).
Mention Gurdjieff to most people today and you will be greeted by a blank look. Between the two world wars, however, it would have been different; and if television had existed at the time there is no doubt that the man, and his establishment at Fontainebleau outside Paris, would have been the subject of a documentary. Many intellectuals stayed there for varying periods, and the writer Katharine Mansfield died there of tuberculosis; an event that led to much hostile criticism at the time.
George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff was a major Western guru, whose influence can be detected in many modern esoteric movements dedicated to spiritual development, rather as Freud's influence is seen in many forms of psychotherapy that are not formally linked to psychoanalysis. Gurdjieff was a highly enigmatic figure, who combined elements of the sage, the adventurer, the comedian, and the confidence trickster. Some revered him, some loved him, some feared or hated him, but no one who met him seems to have been indifferent. He appears to have been a combination of Svengali, Cagliostro, and Groucho Marx. He was immensely resourceful. One of my favourite Gurdjieff stories tells how he once raised funds by catching sparrows, dyeing them yellow, and selling them as `American canaries'.
To write a biography of Gurdjieff is a daunting task, given that Gurdjieff himself went out of his way to sow confusion about his past, continually spreading rumours and fantastic stories about what he had done and where he had been. There have nevertheless been numerous attempts to unravel the mystery; this is one of the best. Moore did not meet Gurdjieff himself but he has read extensively and has talked at length with surviving disciples.
Gurdjieff was born in Alexandropol in 1866; his father was Greek, his mother Armenian. Later the family moved to Kars. As a young man Gurdjieff apparently travelled widely in search of esoteric knowledge, although it is difficult to know how much of what he said about these years is true; certainly it contained a large element of fantasy. There are stories that he was involved in espionage in Tibet, where he claimed to have stayed at a mysterious monastery at which he acquired much of his knowledge. Shortly before the First World War he turned up in Moscow, where he attracted a group of disciples, among whom was a young engineer called P.D. Ouspensky. Ouspensky later became an influential esoteric teacher in his own right, expounding the System he had acquired from Gurdjieff at this time.
As civil war broke out in Russia in 1918, Gurdjieff escaped with a small group of followers and taught for a time in Tbilisi, but when conditions deteriorated he escaped again, this time to Constantinople (Istanbul). In 1922 he visited London, where Ouspensky was now living; but Gurdjieff's followers were unable to get permission for him to stay. It was this that led to Gurdjieff setting himself up in Fontainebleau. Here he remained until 1933, when he lost possession of his establishment owing to financial difficulties. It appears he had by this time lost interest in it. He then lived in Paris until the outbreak of war. After the Liberation his American disciples sought him out, bringing funds (the `American oil well' which Gurdjieff had said he would have access to after the war). He resumed teaching, though in a different way from previously. He died in 1949.
Gurdjieff's teaching methods were Zen-like: enigmatic in the extreme, with elements of slapstick comedy. He wrote a good deal, often in a deliberately obscure style. Once, when he thought he hadn't made his meaning difficult enough, he said to his amanuensis: "Bury the dog deeper." He insisted he meant to say `dog', and not `bone'; this remark seems typical of the man.
He liked to go on long drives, although he never had any driving lessons, and had at least two very serious accidents, in one of which he almost died. He would arrive at a hotel late at night and demand accommodation and food for his entourage; by exerting his charm he generally won over the hotel staff in spite of the inconvenience he put them to. These expeditions, and Gurdjieff's behaviour generally, are hilarious to read about, but it must have taken considerable devotion on the part of his disciples to live with his eccentricities.
It's probably impossible to write about a figure like Gurdjieff from a neutral standpoint. Moore explains his own position at the outset. By using the term `myth' to refer to Gurdjieff he does not mean to dismiss him as bogus; quite the contrary. It is evident that he thinks Gurdjieff to have been a major esoteric teacher, and he has himself practised Gurdjieffian methods since 1956. This might lead one to expect to find a work of hagiography, but not so; the general approach is fairly objective and scholarly, although also very readable. Moore's stated objective was to write an entertaining and informative introduction to his subject's life, and I think he has succeeded. There are detailed chapter notes for readers wishing to go further.
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Post by coggas on Dec 5, 2003 7:18:23 GMT -5
Hi Team, G.s philosophy is enthrawling, yet I propose a further discussion of the 'facts' that lay within the shroud of understanding. Perhaps I should alude to a glimpse of ancient history, because contained within "Beelzibubs Tales to his Grandson" are tastes of the truth.
B. says that after the fall of Atlantis some of the learnered beings of this world, moved to distant places, some to Shumer, B. was there too 'the watchers were on the earth in those days...' B. built a Teskoanoo ( translated as a telescope) that was small in comparison to his one on Mars, 'and at the gate they erected a sphinx...'.
Well, Well, If we give any consideration to Cydonia on Mars and if those pyramids are a 'sky watching device' as the Giza pyramids are now respected to be ( at times, by some), what other 'truths' lie upon... the yellow brick road ?
C.
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Post by Ian on Dec 5, 2003 19:25:40 GMT -5
Hi All, Rafael Lefort was a pen name of Idries Shah. The The Teachers of Gurdjieff book is a fabrication. No one knows who Gurdjieff's teachers were. There are some Sufi connections to Gurdjieff's teaching but there are also namy others, including Orthodox Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, and Platonic philosophy influences. Ian Neo-Sufism: The Case of Idries Shah by James Moore The Gurdjieff Journal Issue No. 24 www.gurdjieff-legacy.org/40articles/neosufism.htm"Shah has conceded his own recourse to pen names (v. Reflections, p. 88), without divulging details; many of his disciples emulate him. Given this obfuscation, it is problematic which of the score or more queerly named authors stylistically and thematically assignable to the ‘Shah-School’ (e.g. Omar Michael Burke Ph.D., Arkon Daraul, Rafael Lefort, Hadrat B.M. Dervish and so on) have independent physical existence?" New Lamps for Old: The Enneagram Debacle by James Moore Reprinted from Telos Journal "Space constraints alone forbid my advancing an equally persuasive and unbalanced case that Gurdjieff's teaching flowed chiefly from Buddhism-with particular redolences of Ch'an (or Zen). Nor can one blithely disregard elements evidently drawn from Pythagorean, Stoic, Essene, Zoroastrian, and Shamanist material.... Since 1980, when James Webb published The Harmonious Circle, with its complex chapter "The Sources of the System," no self-respecting critique of Gurdjieff's thought can rest on any single-source hypothesis whatever. Still less can the "Sufi-inspired" drum be banged unaccompanied, in sheer disregard of L. P. Elwell-Sutton's magisterial "Sufism and Pseudo-Sufism" and Robert Amadou's lucid "Gurdjieff et le soufisme".... In formal terms, the major premise that Gurdjieff was fundamentally a Sufi-inspired teacher must politely be summed up in one unavoidable adjective: false." "How was this trap laid, which ensnares so many honest commentators possessing no substantial background in Sufic or Gurdjieffian studies? 1966 was the year of grand misdirection. It was then there appeared the distasteful fabrication "The Teachers of Gurdjieff" by Rafael Lefort (pseud.) asseverating with marvelous chronological implausibility-that the youthful Gurdjieff had merely been an indifferent pupil to a succession of still living Sufi masters; it was then, in "Special Problems in the Study of Sufi Ideas," that the Home County Sufi "Sheikh," Idries Abutahir Shah, explicitly asserted: "G. I. Gurdjieff left abundant clues to the Sufi origins of virtually every point in his 'system."' The ulterior and all-too-human motive for this misdirection I have already examined in some detail in "Neo-Sufism: The Case of Idries Shah." Shah's self-advertisements and invertebrate "Sufism" signified less than nothing in orthodox Islamic circles and were rejected wholesale by the British Gurdjieffian mainstream, which he schemed to divert. The canard would never have taken hold had not Shah and his self-depiction a) won flattering acceptance among a small but influential coterie of British intellectuals, and b) chimed in with the extravagant millenarian and messianic fervor of 69year-old John Godolphin Bennett (1897-1974), who had been among those close to Gurdjieff in his final year."
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 6, 2003 7:52:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the information Ian.
I had not read "The Teachers of Gurdjieff" before, and was actually looking to find who RL is, a student of G.?, but could not anywhere in the book itself.
I receive a Journal now and then from the Indries Shah Organization and leaf through it, so I don't know anything about the man, whom I dislike now for bringing his views across under such pretence.
I do like Rumi and the Sufis though.
Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 6, 2003 8:12:13 GMT -5
Hi Cogga's
I like the word "enthrawling", and will appreciate you eluding to ancient history, yes indeed, and the truths contained in Beelzibubs Tales to his Grandson, which book I don't have but will shortly.
I will also refresh my memory by listening to my teachers interpretation of G.s "Ray of Creation", and what else he said, because I feel this is my opportunity to get better acquainted with G. and profit.
You know I love the yellow brick road and always thought that the wizard of "OZ" is the wizard of "US"
Thank you
Charlotte
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Post by Ian on Dec 6, 2003 22:30:07 GMT -5
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 8, 2003 8:33:59 GMT -5
Yes, thank you.
Charlotte
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Post by coggas on Dec 15, 2003 7:20:03 GMT -5
Hi Team,
Now where was I...
Beelzibubs tales to his Granson, begins with B.s journey back to earth after a time away. G. describes three types of space craft and how they developed, it seems that G. had a pretty good undestanding of superconductors or perhaps he was drawing from ancient knowledge....
Thought for the day, Cogga's.
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Post by coggas on Dec 15, 2003 7:25:15 GMT -5
The Yellow Brick Road.
The end only brings a new beginning, The journey is the task at hand...
C.
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 16, 2003 10:32:56 GMT -5
Having been whirled around something fierce by tornado's several times, and survived, I'm ever ready to begin anew, and like G. says when he began writing " . . . and as to how the rest will go I can only say meanwhile, as the blind man once expressed it, 'we shall see." Actually, I picked up "Beelzbub's Tales to His Grandson" 2 days after I said I would, but kept forcing myself to finish "The Da Vinci Code" in the hope of finding something worth my while and money, before I open Beelzbub. I have gotten to page 13 only, reading as I "have already become mechanized to read all (my) contemporary books and newspapers." I don't read newspapers, they make my hands black Anyway, the first few sentences of "The Arousing of Thought" brought a smile to my face, by the time I was on page 6 I felt G. was near me, and by page 13 I was smiling from ear to ear, LOL in between, and moreover, I delighted in recognizing the European mind and way of thinking. So for today I can't respond to your first post, but am eager to read on after work because G. has my caught my attention with just a few pages, and with some things you will bring up and out, hopefully, I'm sure to learn swiftly. Maybe I will finally find out why I was told as a child that the Beelzebub will get me if I do something I should not, or go to a dark place, the Keller for instance. Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 19, 2003 10:26:07 GMT -5
Having read to page 24, I am beginning to understand why a man I once knew, not the teacher I mentioned, asked me at the very beginning of our relationship if I knew Gurdjieff. No. He was a man of few words, but every now and then he would tell me how G. would answer a particular question I had.
For this reason, when the teacher announced that he would lecture on the teachings of G., I was more interested than I would have been otherwise. As I see it now, it should not have surprised me that the teacher knew so much about G., as he seemingly knew everything: taught chemistry, biology, physics, ancient philosophy, on the Rosicrucians, generated geometrical shapes and mathematical models for us "just to wonder at", not try to understand, he said, on his computer, and liked the Moody Blues to boot. "You like the Moody Blues?" I asked in disbelieve, "Yes I do" he smiled warmly. The lectures of G. he accompanied with classical music, and I used to help him with all the equipment, and got a hug for it.
Needless to say that we, his students, comprised of homemakers, secritaries, professionals, plumbers and mechanics, so to speak, loved him, none ever missing a class. During one lecture I turned around for some reason, and saw my friend sitting behind the table in the back, acknowledging me with an impersonal look only, but I sensed him leave.
Anyway, so far in the book, I like very much the distinction G. makes between "waking consciousness", which, he says "most people in their ignorance mistake for the real consciousness." This is a confirmation for me.
And the subject of "one's mentation", that "each word, for the same thing or idea, almost always acquires for people of different geographical locality and race a very definite and entirely different so to say 'inner content."
(I'm looking at a spectacular sunrise at the moment, the sky to my left is like a sublime painting of orange cloud shapes on a blue canvas.)
And the story about the Kurd eating hot peppers, and will not stop even if he burns up and his soul departs from him, because he paid his last 2 cents for the peppers, reminded me of my statement about forcing myself to finish reading the Da Vinci Code, hoping to find something worth the money I paid.
And the warning he gives about stirring up the drowsy thoughts of the reader and himself, which he definately feels "that on the whole it will take the form of something which will be, so to say, 'hot,' and will have an effect on the entirety of every reader such as the pepper pods had on the poor Transcausian Kurd", reminds me also of my friend, exceedingly hard on me. I have the feeling that G. will "steal my face" again, leaving me once more wandering in the wilderness.
Charlotte
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Post by coggas on Dec 22, 2003 7:22:34 GMT -5
Hi Charlotte,
Welcome to the world of G. You will never be the same again.
The fun has not yet begun...p66, the law of falling, tell us your thoughts on the space ship designs....
Merry Mithras, Cogga's.
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 24, 2003 12:42:14 GMT -5
Hi Coggas,
By page 35 I absolutely love the man! I went to p.66, but had to go back at least a few pages to have an "Anlauf", because without knowing the previous how could I fully understand "The Law of Falling."
Actually I read from Page 66 to 72 "your right Reverence", and laughed my way through it all with glimpses of "the large inclosure fitted with things like shutters made of a material impervious to the rays of the cosmic substance 'Elekilpomagtistzen", and so on and so on. I simply have to go back to where I left off and fill in the gaps of all he says in his marvelous way, having, as I said before, read only in the mechanically accostumed way, sometimes half asleep, without the benefit yet of having read it again out loud as if to another, let alone a third time to maybe "fathom the gist" of G.s writings.
Fortuned for me that I know German, and had good teachers later in life, enabling me to blick through some of what he says, because in my youth I was educated by the same professor "Stumpsinschmausen", and it's a good thing I had my secret bomb crater or I would have been "shut up in a lunatic asylum" with those thousands we visited once as a class.
I won't be long catching up, as I can hardly put the book down when in my hands.
Delighted
Chalotte
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 29, 2003 12:06:09 GMT -5
Hi coggas, On page 50, end of "The Arousing of Thought" Progress Report, so to speak, guess I have to do all the work myself. For me, G is both wonderful and difficult to read because he incorporates all these subtle details belonging to the event he discribes, and furthermore what arises and proceeds when the said reaches (his)the "reflecting apparatus" of the reader, and the various thoughts which begin to swarm in it, which ultimately lead, in (his) the readers view "to the correct understanding of just why" there proceeds an "instinctive uneasiness", or whatever other feeling or mental processes "make headway." And that's just looking at the inner processes of how one might arrive at an opinion or possibly an understanding. Arghhh, it's beautiful! So reading a chapter, I have to go immediately back to reading it again, because I couldn't hold all the nuances he puts everywhere, which I think will become clear in the following sentences, sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, "and so on and so forth." I love the way he "gives presence" to everyday phrases we use without realizing that we are saying precisely what it is, but think it's just "a figure of speech" and nothing more. I have to say that at times in conversation with others, "my mind stops dead in its track" in the full realization that what another or I just said is the archetypal form of the meaning of a thing, don't know if that's expressing it well, but do know it is an "instance" of a thing in the momentary light in the mind/soul. I'm late for work again, but excuse it with this new "all-universal priniple of living: "If you go on a spree then go the whole hog including the postage." Going the whole hog is dear to me Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Dec 30, 2003 9:41:26 GMT -5
More on the first chapter "The Arousing of Thought"
Toward the end of the chapter G incorparates more of the profound. He actually does this from the beginning but, and probably on purpose, keeps it light with this wonderful humor of his:
That Beelzebub is not written in the usual manner "for helping to produce in one's mentation, very smoothly and easily, exciting images and lulling reveries, he may, if he wishes, without wasting words with the bookseller, return it and get his money back, money perhaps earned by the sweat of his own brow."
His warning about him setting the readers mind on fire, face flaming, and tears streaming from his eyes by 'eating real red pepper pods' with the words 'what are you doing you Jericho jackass? You'll be burned alive! Stop eating that extraordinay product, so unaccustomed for your nature."
That to go on reading 'by appearance alone' the 'noble red pepper' is 'not to be joked with', which 'data are formed in the entirety of contemporay man, thanks evidently to his frequenting of the cinema and thanks also to his never missing an opportunity of looking into the left eye of the other sex."
To remember his grandmothers strict injunction to 'in life never do as others do - aping', corresponding to my fathers advice with a twinkle in his eye to break all the rules that need to broken, but strictly keep those I know to be necessary; and later in life my philosophy teachers urging to "write sideways when they give you ruled paper."
"Shut your trap, you hopeless mongrel offshoot of the Hottentot's", got me thinking of that ancient race not much talked about, but unwittingly kept alive by the Germans. When somebody lives in "primitive" conditions, by this the Germans, thinking themselves almost perfect, mean what in America is called "trailer trash", they say "die leben wie die Hottentotten."
G talks about Mr. Beelzebub being "of a different grain", and "since He can also think, and, waht is most important, has---as I long ago learned, thanks to the treatise of the famous Catholic Monk, Brother Foolen---a curly tail . . . " Lol, I grew up Catholic.
Leading into the profound, he mentions that "All Common teacher, whom I particularely esteem, the wisest of the wise, Mullah Nassr Eddin, or as he is aslo called, Hodja Nassr Eddin, is, it seems, little known in Europe and America, but he is very well known in all countries of the continent of Asia", and then he says something very interesting to me "this legendary personage corresponds to the American Uncle Sam or the German Till Eulenspiegel."
He talks about "a peaceful inner condition as I experienced in later life once only, when the ceremony of the great initiation into the Brotherhood of the 'Originators of making butter from the air' was performed over me . . . "
"Any writer can write within the scale of the earth, but I am not any writer. Can I confine myself merely to this, in the objective sense, paltry earth of ours? . . . especially now when I can already quite 'skillfully' enter into the position of another . . . ". He notes the discovery of his "two souls" and an "overexercised solar plexus", and the "vivifying experiences."
"With a signature there must be no joking", and he signs the first chapter:
"He who in childhood was called 'Tatakh'; in early youth 'Darky'; later the 'Black Greek; in the middle age, the 'Tiger of Turkistan'; not just anybody, but the genuine 'Monsieur' or Mr. Gurdjieff, or the nephew of 'Prince Mukransky', or finally a 'Teacher of Dancing."
Practicing the first steps
Charlotte
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Post by coggas on Jan 20, 2004 8:45:11 GMT -5
Hey Charlotte,
This is great stuff, please continue...
Cheers, Cogga's.
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 20, 2004 10:55:21 GMT -5
I know I know Coggas! I, one "of the three-brained beings" and "embodiment of 'Bliss-storkirno', was seriously considering to loosen a thread or two of my web to cruise the solar system with his "right Reverence, who had such an exeptionally strong, fiery, and splendid youth, and an also exeptional old age", who "had been taken, owing to his extraordinarily resoursful intelligence, into the service of the 'Sun Absolute', where our LORD SOVEREIGN ENDLESSNESS has the fundamental place of his dwelling; and there Belzebub, among others like himself, had become an attendant upon HIS ENDLESSNESS." The man is incredible Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 23, 2004 10:16:44 GMT -5
Ah yes, Gurdjieff! A "live" teacher, because the minute I open the book he is with me, me one of those, "as they might be called , 'who lie in the spere of idiocy', that is between sleep and drowsiness", and if others "might curse me, it would have---no effect on me." Well it does for a moment, but I am now in the habit of shrugging it off and just keep on searching for the marvelous. Because I don't understand perfectly many things he says, I can only comment from the "various thoughts" which "begin to swarm" when what he says reaches my "reflecting apparatus", which thoughts originate from references already somewhere in my mind, wherever that is in my head, or maybe partially in my cells. And you, coggas, obviously acquainted with the man, are not giving me a of help. Why Belzebub Was in Our Solar System Was? But now " . . . our MAKER CREATOR pardoned him and gave him permission to return to the place of his arising." This statement produces in my mentation, aside from him compelling me to take on his style of writing, the thought of the prodigal son coming home, after he had seen what havoc he caused on the several planets of our solar system, and repented. He probably couldn't cognize the unimaginable scope of his doing, or "mistake", therefore layed claim to mercy, and "HIS ENDLESSNESS" forgave him on account of "his All-lovingness and All-forgiveness." But was it a mistake? Or did Beelzebub "in his exeptionally strong, fiery, and splendid youth" do what he did on purpose, the purpose being that "ye shall never die." Because the god of Israel, Humanity, (a side thought: "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt") was and maybe still is, a "jealous god." Or maybe Beelzibub himself is that "jealous god." The War in Heaven "Long, long before, while Beelzebub was still existing at home on the planet Karatas, he had been taken, owing to his extraordinary resourceful intelligence into the service on the 'Sun Absolute', where our LORD SOVEREIGN ENDLESSNESS has the fundamental place of his Dwelling; and there Beelzebub, among other like himself, had become an attendant upon HIS ENDLESSNESS." "It was then that, owing to the as yet unformed Reason due to his youth, and owing to his callow and therefore still impetuous mentation with unequally flowing associations---that is, owing to a mentation based, as is natural to beings who have not yet become definitely responsible, on a limited understanding---Beelzebub saw once in the government of the world something which seemed to him 'illogical', and having found support among his comrades, being like himself not yet formed, (us, virgin angel self-hoods) interfered in what was none of his business." "Thanks to the impetuosity and force of Beelzebub's nature, his intervention together with his comrades then soon captured all minds, and the effect was to bring the central kingdom of Megalocosmos almost to the edge of revolution." The Megalocosmos being "heaven", the dwelling place of Lord Sovereign Endlessness, who "was constrained to banish Beelzebub with his comrades to one of the remote corners of the universe, namely, to the solar system 'Ors' (ours) whose inhabitants call it simply the 'Solar System." Our souls own. Because Beelzebub, owing to above named qualities, couldn't wait for the orderly unfolding of consciousness, and because this feeling of great power is the greatest aphrodisiac, irresistably beguiling to him, and exerting this power of attraction on his comrades, because he wished to lord it over others, us, and we all fell. We were "assigned" a place of existence, namely Mars, the planet of war, so much in the news currently, but were given "the privilege of existing on other planets also, though only of the same solar system." It is beautiful! It makes me happy that he calls the moon a planet as well, rather than just a satellite orbiting the earth, because it is our former earth, and some of our comrades are still stuck "on the dark side of the moon." It was this "Fall", causing planetary differentiation in our solar system, which sustain time, thereby giving us time to go back to the place of "our arising." On the way of falling to earth, and as we are now, as concrete as it gets, we took essence of each planet into ourselves, and on the way back we not only have to re-deem ourselves, but the planets of our solar system as well, I was taught. We got our work "cut out" for us. But we have already began Charlotte
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Post by coggas on Jan 24, 2004 9:03:33 GMT -5
Hi Charlotte,
You have a gift, this is REALLY good stuff. I hope one of us, that might be Don, or the good folks at proboards.com, because it ain't me, is making a back-up of your art.
If you can finish it with me I'l sell it. When I get past the new year and the back to school phenomenon, I promise to be closer on the mark, and have much more to say.....ask...
What else but roses....roses...
Cheers Cogga's.
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 24, 2004 11:05:18 GMT -5
Good morning!
I noticed a winky face in my last post, and also noticed that the words FAST, Reliable, Easy TO USE, on top of the board leave leave "tracks" or "streaks", reminding me of scientists "electrons and other (subatomic) particles leave tracks on photographic emulsions or in a cloud chamber." If I imagin the above letters being "emulsed" photographically, or my head being a cloud chamber, and neurons firing must leave some kind of residue "ashes", maybe I saw electrons streaking for the first time in my life. Or maybe it's just "your computer is slow" the add tells me, in which case it would be slowed down mtion, and all the more I would see the track after the electron's jump. Actually, I don't think electrons "jump" per se, rather the heavier positive proton/nucleus emits energy, surrounds itself with negative energy, and when they kiss they become an atom and make a neutron/child to bind them together. But they only make a neutron when there are more than one positively charged women/proton in the houshold because they "repulse" each other lol, to neutralize the charged atmosphere, at the same time the neutron/children binds them all together, even the negative father/electron who likes to "rotate" inside and outside the household, to live "the responsible life." OK I stop.
"By objective time-calculations, or, as it would be said here on the 'Earth', in the year 1921 after the birth of Christ", there "flew through the universe the ship Karnak of the 'transspace' communication."
"It was flying from "Assooparatsata', (sounds like the Hindus having an "Aha, a soo is this", or the Germans "ach so ist das", or the Japanese "aso des ga) that is, from the spaces of the 'Milky Way', from the planet Karatas to the solar system 'Pandetznock', (maybe to ponder in this nook of the solar system) the sun of which is also called the 'Pole Star."
"On the said 'transspace' ship was Beelzebub with his kinsmen and near attendents, (his hierarchy) on his way to the planet Revozvradendr", lol I think he had a rendezvous with "his friends of long standing." He remembered "these old frienships", and because he was "no longer young" he "consented to take part in a special conference" with us.
"Only a little before this journey Beelzebub had returned home to his planet Karatas" (maybe the karat's of his jewel on his forehead) where he had received his arising and far from which, on account of circumstances independent of his own essence, he had passed many years of his existence in conditions not proper to his nature."
If I consider Beelzebub in his "strong, fiery, and splendid youth" as Lucifer the Archangel, then conditions outside of "heaven" were not proper to his nature and essence.
I am not clear yet if Karnak has to do with Egypt, but it would work with to planet Earth "there was once sent a such a Messenger from our ENDLESSNESS, a certain Ashiata Shimash, (an avatar) and as Beelzebub had then fulfilled a certain need in connection with his mission, the said Messenger, when he returned once more to the 'Sun Absolute', earnestly besought HIS ENDLESSNESS to pardon this one young and fiery but now aged Beelzebub."
The avatar was Beelzebub's celestial twin Michael (Christ), they worked things out and "reconciled", Michael put a good word in for his wayward brother Lucifer, his ENDLESSNESS forgave him, and their was great joy in heaven. Because "only a little before this NOW journey Beelzebub had returned to his home, came back into the fold.
All this happened before "the great flood", a cleansing of the psychological smog at the time, all was contracted in Noah's Ark, 8 went in and 9 came out, and the ninth, son of Noah and Eve his "wife", was the prodigal son, and the progenitor of the Great Egyptian Civilization, the "Dark Prince." And no one can deny that the Egyptians were strong, splendid, fiery, effulgent, glorious, and worked for thousands of years under the Dark Prince and his close attendents exeedingly hard to leave the things they did to show the way back to the center of the universe, ourselves.
Hermes to the great Healer
"Do you not know, O Asclepius, that Egypt is a copy of Heaven, or rather, the place where here below are mediated and projected all operations which govern and actuate the heavenly forces? Even more than that, if the whole truth is to be told, our land is the temple of the entire world."
And so is our body, the only true temple
Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 25, 2004 11:44:48 GMT -5
Hi coggas, If a gift and art it is, all the credit goes to Fern, my mentor: "I'm telling you all of this because you have been conditioned for a long time and can think abstractly"; Manly Palmer Hall, and my three other principle teacher. I am just beginning to realize just how excellent they are, reminding me of the words of my philosophy teacher to us: "Some time from now, maybe when there is a cold and blistery day in LA, you might think back to this time and remember your old teacher and say: hmmm, that son of a gun, he was really somebody." I think Don is responsible for the appearance of smiley-grin faces in posts, has it rigged so they put themselves in automatically. I have sort of hinted on this before but he has not responded, so I might be wrong. By his own admission, he saves everything, and suggested puplishing "Bacon and Charlotte's Web", so he might be saving this thread also. I never even thought of "the good folks at propboard.com" looking in. If I finish it with you and you sell it, does this mean we go 50/50 ? I don't know about you Sir, but if it becomes a runaway best seller and we make milli ::)ns, I could get Don a super computer so he could leave me totally in the dust with more functions which I don't know how to use, and for him, and everybody around here a big time financial bust, and a meeting in the "White Desert" would be a glorious must! Dreamer I am I'll keep on thinking out loud until you can help me understand better, even only on page 54 I can precognize that "everything will come up roses"; on the open hand . . . Thank you for bringing G into my life! Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 25, 2004 15:33:56 GMT -5
While driving to Mexico and back yesterday, I was thinking about this Lucifer business and the funny names G gives to the planets, persons, and other things, and before I knew it I was at the border crossing. It's true, it surprised me how fast I got there this time without really paying attention to signs and such.
The ship "Karnak of the 'transspace communication", a relationship?, flew from the spaces of the Milky Way, from the planet "Karatas" where Beelzebub "had received his arising." Like his "brother" Michael, Lucifer is said to be an "emanation" of the "divine father." Because I don't think "Karatas" is a planet per se, and the space ship "Karnak" could be our mortal soul/psyche, the traveler in the solar system. "Karna" the radiant carnal form, or "carne", a "ray", or Karneious "the sun born" Beelzebub, in Job "a son of God."
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep", from this darkness and the "deep" of chaos sprang the first Archangel called "Lux" or Lucifer the "Luminous Son of the Morning", and according to Fern, "light=consciousness was the first creature ever born", in which case Beelzebub himself IS consciousness. It also works with the notion that Lucifer is our redeemer, as we shall never die when eating from the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The war in heaven was over, we were exiled, and: "Among these exiles, besides the said comrades of Beelzebub, were a number of those who merely sympathized with him, and also the attendents and subordinates both of Beelzebub and of his comrades." The entire angelic hierarchy.
"All, with their households, arrived at this remote place and there in a short time on the planet Mars a whole colony was formed of three-centered (not three-brained)beings from various planets of the central part of our Great Universe.
All this population, extraordinay for the said planet, accomodated itself little by little to its new dwelling place, (adapt or perish) and many of them even found one or another occupation for shortening the long years of exile.
They found occupations either on this same planet Mars, or upon the neighboring planets, namely, on those planets that had been entirely neglected on account of their remoteness from the center and the poverty of all their formations."
Maybe Beelzebub, feeling responsible for our lostness in space, directed us in fashioning the planets of our solar system as we needed them to survive, as in "necessity is the mother of inventions", and since we didn't know how much time we needed to do all we had to, where we were going, like I don't know where I'm going with all this, and Beelzebub couldn't tell us, or we wouldn't be here in the first place, we projected planets ahead of ourselves in remote places and worked on their formation, because:
"As the years rolled by, many (of us) either on their own initiative or in response to needs of general character, migrated gradually from the planet Mars to other planets; but Beelzebub himself, together with his near attendants, remined on Mars, where he organized his existence more or less tolerable."
Obviously, he isn't there anymore because he is "on his way to the planet Revozvradendr to a special conference . . ."
Generally speaking, is all this the (subconscious) reason why of all planets in our solar system, we want to know mostly if there was life on Mars? And why in Beelzebub's name would we want to go back to the moon "to establish colonies" there? We've been there and done that, for us here on earth it's dead. What is Bush thinking LOL LOL?
It is said planetary differentiation "happened" to sustain time for us, but who made it happen? The idea that it could have been our Selves is too outrages even for me. Help! Where are the gods for the asking?
Charlotte
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Post by Don Barone on Jan 25, 2004 21:57:03 GMT -5
Hi Charlotte [et al]:
Please forgive me for my absence and I have done as you suggested and saved 'The Bacon Chronicles". 'The Voynich Manuscript" and 'Gurdjieff in the 21st' threads. Are there any others we should save ?
As to mysterious smiley faces, I fear Charlotte you are getting far too like myself. Whenever one tries to put quotation marks [ " ] and a D together one gets "D
Cheers Don Barone
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 26, 2004 6:36:25 GMT -5
Hi Don, Thanks as always. Not that it's important, but does "Dis then happen by itself? I heve been wanting to reply to "your" universe some, could you create a little more time? And are you people just so freezing in Canada I'll try again "Dis" When you say I'm getting more like you, Don, do you mean I'm beginning to see conspiracies everywhere? You're not talking to me anymore The Mars'ians don't like our spirit, but give us an opportunity! Love CC
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 26, 2004 10:17:52 GMT -5
"We have a reason for the unthinkable!" Concluded this wonderful genius Waterstone at the end of one of his posts. I still can't make up my mind what the ship "Karnak" means, or "the spaces of Assooparatsata", the Milky Way. What I found was "a region of 'invisible' stars that could be taken, they said, for clouds -- so massed are they in the zone that we call Via Straminis, the Milky way, these are the stars of Lucifer, engulfed with him in his terrible shipwreck." But Beelzebub didn't wreck the Karnak, so far. Rather, he profits from the advice of the very wise three-brained being Mullah Nassr Edin: "You cannot jump over your knees and it is absurd to try and kiss your own elbow." Lol And so far also, the journey of this ship seems to me to be "conditions" we passed through in our evolution. The "captain" of the ship, after "having performed before Beelzebub all the ceremonies appropriate to Beelzebub's rank, addresses him: "Your Right Reverence, allow me to ask your authoritative opinion upon an 'inevitability' that lies in the line of our course, and which will hinder our smooth falling by the shortest route." The smooth course seems to me to be the "orderly", therefore lawful unfolding of consciousness his ENDLESSNESS had in mind. "The point is", says the captain, "that if we follow our intended course, then our ship, after two Kilprenos, I can't stop laughing, will pass through the solar system 'Vuanik." I thought Kilprenos were Kilometers, but in the foot note it says that in the "language of Beelzebub means a certain period of time, equal approximately to the duration of the flow of time which we call an 'hour." In any case, it's distance Kil-and time-chronos. Now it gets really interesting. The solar system "Vuanik" sounds like a fiery region, one of those really hot pepper pods . . . "But just through where our ship must pass; there must also pass, about a Kilpreno before the great comet belonging to that solar system and named 'Sakoor' or, as it is sometimes called, the 'Madcap". "So if we keep on our proposed course", that is Beelzebub's, not our "LORD SOVEREIGN'S, "we must inevitably traverse the space through which this comet will have to pass. Your Right Reverence of course knows that this 'Madcap' always leaves in its track a great deal of 'Zilnotrago' which on entering the planetary body of a being disorganizes most of its functions until all the 'Zilnotrago' is volatilized out of it." Zilnotrago, when hitting my reflecting apparatus, the thought nitrogen floated up. In it the foot note it is a "special gas similar to what we call 'cyanic acid." I have to make "nitrogen dioxide" an extreemly poisonous gas used in producing "nitric acid" out of "cyanic acid", on account the great comet named "Sakoor", sometimes called "Madcap" is involved here. "Sakoor" I change to liqueur, and is it by coincidence that we have been talking about this "Madcap." In any event, it is a poisenous, noxious, toxic, intoxicating agent, and we are all intoxicated by Beelzebub. "I thought at first", the captain continues, "of avoiding the 'Zilnotrago' by steering the ship around these spheres, but for this a long detour would be necessary which would greatly lenghten the time of our passage." Probably because by not passing through that solar system and encountering the comet "Zakoor", contact with Wotan would take forever, as we say here on earth. "On the other hand", says the captain, who as far as I can tell at the moment, is our divine, evolving ego stirring the ship "Karnak", in which case the ship would be our carnal body- Kòrper, "to wait somewhere until the 'Zilnotrage' is dispersed would take still longer." "In view of the sharp distinction in the alternatives before us, I cannot myself decide what to do, and so I have ventured to trouble you, your Right Reverence, for your competent advice. The captain having finished speaking, Beelzebub thought a little and then said as follows: "Really, I don't now how to advice you, my dear Captain. Ah, yes . . ." Said Lucifer the proud Spirit to a host of spirit self-hoods, as we were yet sitting on cloud 9 with nothing to do, I can't force you to follow me, but, he thought, I know myself to be brilliantly enlightened which gives me almost unlimited power with which I desire to rule the heavens come hell or high water, but I have to have legions of these guys to lord this power over, or what good would it do me, so I'll give them a sufficient dose of this power to see just how good that feels, and I know that once intoxicated they will irresistably follow me. And as Beelzebub himself says to the Captain: "There is nothing to be done; when an event is impending which arises from forces immersurably greater than ours, one must submit." Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 27, 2004 10:53:30 GMT -5
Hi to one and all,
While reading I make one step forward and two back, because I sense these layers beneath the surface text. Sometimes I almost grasp a thing, then it fades away.
Trail and error
"The war in Heaven" seems to have taken place on the planet Mars, where Beelzebub and his "celestian militia", the "three centered beings", before we had experience and "Nous", established colonies. Having learned what was necessary for the time being, many needed to move on, as we say, but Beelzebub himself with his near attendants remained. He occupied himself chiefly arranging an "observatory" to observe "remote points of the Universe and of the conditions of existence of beings on neighboring planets; and this observatory of his, it may here be remarked, afterwards became well known and even famous everywhere in the Universe."
Since nobody can observe remote points of the Universe from Mars, and the only Universe I know of is the Earth and myself, so to speak, this observatory must be in the "inner spaces", which are said to be as boundless as the outer spaces. I heard in a science program once that an atom to a molecule is like a cherry to the earth, and philosophy teaches that the essence of the planets is within ourselves.
Later, ". . .our LORD SOVEREIGN" sent one of "HIS Messengers to the planets of this system, to regulate, more or less, the being-existence of the three-brained beings arising on them", our beeingness at the time, "for the co-ordination of the process of their existence with the general World Harmony."
Fern: "When we over-burden time, a living entity, with our delinquencies, slow-poking along in our self-centered stupid ways, she says 'I cant't take this anymore' and runs out on us, joining herself to 'eternal time', in doing so she re-deems this joinder in the middle and a new cycle begins.
One of these "Messengers from our ENDLESSNESS", we ARE ENDLESS, "a certain Ashiata Shiemash" returned "to the SUN ABSOLUTE", beseeching "HIS ENDLESSNESS" to pardon Beelzebub, our MAKER CREATOR forgave him, and Beelzebub happened "to be again in the center of the Universe." Everyone seems to be endless save our MAKER CREATOR, whom G gives not attributes.
G talks about a "planet" Asia. In philosophical terms, the "planet" or continent of Asia, is the back of our head or scull, let's say from the ears on back, the oldest and biggest continent, where, biologically speaking, are the "three brains." Reptilian, mamelian, and "modern."
"Ashiata Shimash" may be the Asiatic Shamash, Mithras or Mithra, masculine and feminine, both fiery beings, maybe like Lucifer and Venus, because "while observing the boundless space" on the ship Karank, Beelzebub described to Hassein, his grandson, "the peculiarities of the nature of the planet called Venus."
The Prince(s) of Darkness
"The Asiatic World, the Third, our world of action, called Kliphot, (which sounds like Beelzebub's "Kilpreno", a certain period or flow of time we call an "hour") containing the other 6 spheres and matter, the residence of the Prince of Darkness."
Lucifer and Pharaoh are Princes of Darkness. Egypt is not called the "Land of Darkness" because of it's dark, fertile soil only, but also because it's mysteries are hidden in the 14 temples of Nubia, Abu Simbel, another great story. Any young mind, as that of the Great Ramses when he was yet a child and the all powerful Seti equicked (that was a "Jungian" slip so I'll leave it) him with a Harem, is also dark, fertile soil.
Prometheus, god of love and messenger, stole fire from heaven, bringing light or knowledge to the world and suffered unbearable pain chained to a rock in the Caucasus Mountains.
"Mithras, the rock-born god, symbol of the male mundane fire, or the personified primordial light, flashed out of the Persian mountain as a radiant ray of light." A genius and great magician, Mithras was "the leader of and the evocator of Souls. Mercury the messenger is identified with Mithras, so is Michael, later Christ.
In King's "Gnostics", "the numerical or Kabalistic value of the name Abraxus directly refers to the Persian title of the god Mithra, Ruler of the year, worshipped from the earliest times under the appellation of Iao."
This one Prince under different names brings light out of the Darkness, and the fire philosophers down through the ages worshiped him for this boon to mankind.
When the mysteries of Mithras are explained "musical reason is added", and this extraordinay man Gurdjieff, the nephew of "Prince Mukransky" and "Teacher of Dancing", has struck a melodious key note, has taken my hand with a graceful bow and a smile inviting me to dance with him to the music of the 7 spheres and the ENDLESS solar systems, and heaven too, within myself.
The devil makes me do it
Grateful Charlotte
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Post by Charlotte on Jan 28, 2004 11:05:14 GMT -5
Huh Don, what happened to our picture?
Beelzebub in the 21st . . .
In the Earth year 1921 after the birth of Christ, the ship Karnak with Beelzebub on board flew through the "transspace communication." He was on his way to a special conference with his friends of long standing, because "events of great importance" had "occurred on one of the planets of the solar system "Pandetznokh", and his old friends "intruded" on him because they wanted to talk to him about these events. So this would be our time.
"His influence and authority had not only not declined during his exile, but on the contrary, they had greatly increased, since all those around him were clearly aware, thanks to his prolonged existence in the aforementioned unusual conditions, his knowledge and experience must inevitably have been broadened and deepened."
Always near Beelzebub was the handsome boy Hassain, standing out in a way that compels attention. Hassein was "the son of Beelzebub's favorite son Tooloof" lol. Reminds me of Pluto abducting us into the underworld when we're picking daisies, which is good and bad. When we day-dream we dont pay attention to the external world, but wander around in our inner space.
"After his return home from exile, Beelzebub had seen this grandson of his, Hassein, for the first time, and, appreciating his good heart, and also owing to what is called 'family attraction', he took an instant liking to him."
So due to this "family attraction", was Beelzebub, after his exeptionally strong, fiery, and splendid nature waned, aloof while occupied with the actualization of active mentation for a "Kilpreno" or two during his exile, in the middle ages as the "Black Greek", regenerated himself, and in a second youth, beause the middle was sort of a trasition period, became "Hassein of the East", so to speak, because Wisdom comes from the East, or the "Tiger of Turkestan." Though with renewed vigor, a kinder and gentler Beelzebub owing to his experience "during the period of which this tale of ours refers." And he was getting old and tired anyway, and according to universal law it is either die or transform.
The time Beelzebub met his grandson for the first time "happened to coincide with the time when the Reason of little Hassein needed to be developed, Beelzebub, having a great deal of free time there (on the Karnak), himself undertook the education of his grandson, and from that time on took Hassein everywhere about with him."
Beelzebub or Lucifer, intoxicated us with the promise to become as gods in our own right, of immortality, whereupon we followed him in the first place, and now, as Hassein, whom "he looked upon with great affection" keeps leading us to make good on his promise? Or why would we consider this story of Gurdjieff's at all, and why am I sitting here writing about it? My mind is making all sorts of connections to this very wise man Mullah Nassr Eddin, corresponding to Ameica's Uncle Sam. Takes on a whole new meaning, this
"Running with the devil", though I rather dance with this Teacher of 7 octaves.
Charlotte
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Post by coggas on Jan 29, 2004 5:22:24 GMT -5
Wo-a-Ho-a, Do you see all them stars, Cogga's has three ! ...Actually it seem that Mr Don has changed the amount of posts required to achieve a certain distinction. How do I know this, well inspired by proboards I set one up myself for the company that I work for, (that's the fastest way to get 5 stars ). Thank's Don. C.
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Post by coggas on Jan 29, 2004 5:58:18 GMT -5
Hi Charlotte,
As promised I plan to spend more time on this adventure than I have been able to do over the holiday period. Down Under this co-insides with the summer break, so there are loads of BBQs, swimming, surf and a few glasses of His Endlessness's favorite.
Firstly can we synchronize books. When I discovered G. nearly twenty years ago, I obtained Beelzebubs Tales in three separate books, I still have two of them...somewhere, but my main copy these days is a bleedin' paperback of 1238 pages, (and no index). Once upon a time I found myself in a cold and dingy alley way, off a main street in Melbourne, it looked and felt like a twilight zone scene, I spied in the window of a dark and dusty esoteric book shop, there was a title called "Index to Beelzebub's Tales...", I didn't purchase it, perhaps they were not even open...I wish I had.-But of course, what would G. have to say: 'There is no reward unless one does parkdogduty'.
Nevertheless I have an Arkana (as usual) paperback edition 1999. May I suggest that you refer to chapter names as well as page numbers. That way we might be able to go through this together.
Cheerio Cogga's.
P.S. Do you know if Don is a voyeur of G. ?
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